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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 13, 2007 23:48:25 GMT -5
Perhaps this is in response to Goren having the deprived childhood and feeling like he was a little "less" than other kids. Shame or embarrassment of his financial/homelife situation could have been the start of things. Perhaps as a teen or later as a young man that type of girl/woman was unattainable. Rejection by the high school popular girls because of his different behavior or his not being a jock might have fueled his attraction to the thoroughbred type later in life. Goren did seem rather empathetic towards the silver thief in a different episode after he realized this was pretty similar to what motivated the perp to steal from the wealthy. In a world of have and have nots, I believe Goren was the latter. Does this influence his preference in women?
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 14, 2007 10:14:02 GMT -5
I'm not seeing this need for "thoroughbreds" from Goren that some of you are. If anything, he has disdain for the upper crust, wealthy, self-absorbed types desired by Keith. The only "real" girlfriend we ever glimpsed at was Irene, and she was a gutsy, motivated, down to earth chick with an obvious Queens accent, heading a start up securities business in a rat invested building. Yes, she was attractive, but not the kind of woman Keith desired.
Some of Patcat's questions:
Perhaps everything that can be said about Elizabeth Hitchens/Nicole Wallace/The Evil One has been said. Is it possible for us to look at her with fresh eyes, as if everything that followed this episode hadn't occurred? What was your first reaction to this story?
My first reaction was WOW, this is a fantastic story & this woman is so manipulative, intelligent & cruel. She really gets to Goren, who was always, cocky, self-assured, and generally infallible prior to their confrontation at Major Case. We got to see his buttons.
Much of the discussion of this story has centered on the Bobby/Nicole confrontation. But what about some of its other elements? What about its depiction of an academic environment?
Having worked for years at several Universities, there are those members who think they are "all that" like Prof. Saunders(?) and the usual "who's sleeping with who."
A possibility that struck me as I watched Alex and Bobby play the couple in the shoe store (apparently a favorite scene of many)--could Bobby be gay or bisexual?
There are so many men walking around Manhattan who act like that, very affected & bi, but they are straight as I am sexually. IDK why they act in such a manner, but Bobby got it right. You just don't usually see a big, burly guy like Goren playing the metro-sexual too often.
What is Eames' role in this episode? What are her reactions to Nicole? What, if any, are Nicole's reactions to her?
The only thing about Eames I really noticed was that annoyance at Goren at the end, like how could he think she'd (Nicole) would still be there? You could almost imagine her saying to herself, "Men. They don't know anything about women."
Is there any significance to the fact both Alex and Nicole are small blond women?
I don't see a connection. They don't look anything alike. I never consider Eames all that blond, she's more light brown.
There is, I think, a feeling among many on this group that Nicole is now beyond saving. But what about at this point, during this episode--could she still be saved? Does her encounter with Bobby turn her more towards evil in creating in her mind an obsession with him?
In this episode, she is at her evilest. She was, and still is, beyond saving. Basically because I don't believe deep down she wants to be saved, either by God or by Goren.
It's an old question, but one that still seems to generate some interest. Is Bobby interested in Nicole? Is she interested in him?
In a purely physical sense, he finds her attractive. And I believe it is reciprocated. I think he was intrigued by her keen mind, but all sense of attraction flew out of him when she taunted him about "Mummy."
Bobby is blindsided by Nicole's use of his personal situation against him. Should he be? Is this something he should've anticipated?
I get the idea he'd never been in that situation before, & believed himself incapable of being pulled in & manipulated like that.
To jump ahead in the Nicole saga a bit: She's killed Bernard, the man responsible for her "creation." Will she stop
I seriously doubt it. She would have to want to get professional help
Some of what we know about Bobby Goren comes from his confrontations with Nicole. Could this information have been conveyed in a different way?
Using Nicole Wallace was a great way to convey so much in so little time. Bravo to the writers. Very clever.
A hero is frequently defined by his/her antagonist. How does Nicole define Bobby? Is she his best antagonist?
Yes, because it's not just what she says to him, but the glee in her while she delivers those crushing emotional blows. Great acting. She's so cruel & unfeeling, and revels in it.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 14, 2007 11:20:31 GMT -5
The upper crust disdain I have seen from Goren has been directed at the empty headed priviledged entitled types (Paris Hiltonish)...both men and women. His interest is piqued by educated, attractive, intelligent women who hold their own in the world or their chosen professions. Those women tend to seek mates of the same caliber and I believe this is what pricks both his interest/attraction/a little insecurity. He wants to be accepted as an equal but when he is disdainfully reminded by some of their trappings/social status he either bristles or becomes quiet and withdraws. It's kind of a short retreat to regroup and then "attack" to bring them down a peg or two. His interest I believe is in a woman with true class, not a woman trying to act the part.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 15, 2007 12:35:24 GMT -5
I'm not seeing this need for "thoroughbreds" from Goren that some of you are. I dont see it as a "need" more as a "curiosity". Keith was the one who had the "need". In the bar, Goren made some comment that Keith's kind of woman were 'ballbusters'. Goren picked up right away that Charlotte Fielding was not who she said she was. He knew how to hobnob with Charlotte's/Cookies neighbors. Men are visual creatures. Irene and Keith's lawyer both came from the same mold so to speak, physically that is. They were both tall, slender, pretty burnettes. If he dated Irene, then Goren most likely was attracted to Keith's lawyer, making the comment about being a thoroughbred, and looking at her. Goren wanted to know more about who she was too. And maybe I could be wrong here, but since she was a lawyer, maybe there are more thourghbred lawyers then regular joe's/josephine's lawyers. Cause I just feel it takes really big bucks to become a lawyer. Unless of course you have the drive and ambition to become one. Thoroughbreds grow up with money. I kind of get the feeling with the way Carver carried himself. He could be consider a thoroughbred. Gosh he sure looks like a yummy one when he's wearing his suspenders.!! Also, I remember years ago, when Marlo Thomas first appeared on the Phil Donahue show. The two of them were flirting with each other. I think it was the first time they met. Marlo made some comment, questioning him. If she was stepping out of line with him. did he feel she was of the same "class" as him. Phil said oh yeah....we are in the same class. Anyway, Goren sees the "class lines". He's a bright boy. and with the family that he grew up in. I am sure lots of time he feels like he is "looking in". Like everyone in life, I am sure sometimes he wants to be a part of it. Other times, run aways as fast as he can
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 15, 2007 14:40:30 GMT -5
The point about Keith's lawyer and Irene being similar reminded me of the early episode where Goren is questioning the doctor and he pulls the picture of the young woman the doctor was obsessed with out of his pocket. He made some remark and then a sound....kind of the sound I make when I see eclairs. The young woman was tall, slender and quite an attractive brunette. At the time I believed Goren merely was using this photo to get to the doctor but looking back I think Goren was also a bit appreciative of it. He made some remark about those kind of women being attracted to money, power etc.. Perhaps Goren more than understands Keith's and the doctor's desire to obtain "that kind of woman" because he finds that desire in himself.
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Post by chyochyo on Jul 15, 2007 15:42:22 GMT -5
I always thought it was interesting that Goren and Nicole meet in the scene immediately after the scene in the shoe shop. Well, actually I found it reassuring, because the shoe shop scene is the only time I can think of when I actually disliked and was disappointed in Goren--because we know and the detectives know that Goren is acting far out of character, playing on the clerk's assumptions and in a way mocking him, when as far and they and we know the clerk hasn't done anything to deserve that (I know that Goren has done that in other scenes, for some reason it especially irked me here). I suspect that the scene was played that way on purpose, especially since Eames points out early in the scene that they might be able to get the information they need without lying. Goren is lying for the fun of it. He's a gifted liar (as we learned when he convinced the young women that she had AIDS in season one)--I always thought that part of the reason why he chose to become a cop was to save himself, to use his gift for a moral purpose, and therefore be true to himself in moral safety. It's one thing to know that lying and manipulation are (generally) wrong, but to feel wronged, to feel hurt, angry, and humiliated because someone has manipulated you and lied to you is a much more vivid kind of understanding. The scene where Goren lies for pleasure is followed by the scene where he meets someone as skilled at manipulation as he is. She's his anit-thesis but his experience with her may actually have been good for him.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 15, 2007 15:50:08 GMT -5
HA!! Do you remember in "Privilege" the wife/lawyer of the boyfriend of the murdered Isabel Harrington. She was the actress who played Irene! and Goren gave her the look over too! Was it just because she was married to a bum or he thought she was beautiful too!!! Or another thoroughbred lawyer?! I agree, the woman in "the Good Doctor" had the same kind of beauty. I think we are on to something..... Oh "Irene's" real name is Caprice Benedetti www.imdb.com/name/nm0070691/
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Post by Cassie on Jul 15, 2007 15:53:53 GMT -5
Ohhh Chyocho,
I like what you said..... That Goren isnt perfect..... plus he somewhat reeped what he sowed with the clerk....to nicole...
interesting....
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Jul 16, 2007 8:32:29 GMT -5
When I watched this last night it struck me as ironic that the actor who played Nicole's Hudson lawyer "I'm getting a writ and I'll be back..." would end up several seasons later in "Endgame" playing someone who works for The Innocence Project" -- (with a stop in the middle playing the husband in "Pas de Deux"...)
It's also interesting to ponder just how much manipulation is going on in this episode. Nicole manipulates Goren and Mark and Christine, and Goren and Eames manipulate the shoe clerk, the fake key is a manipulation, Mark is tying to manipulate the system to get his extension... in small and big ways... everyone is trying to get something from someone else indirectly.
And its interesting to see that by the beginning of season two Goren and Eames' partner dynamic had reached the silent conversation stage. When they are interviewing Nicole the first time, Goren looks at Eames after picking up the Penderecki cd and Eames is the one to mention going to the opera. That always seemed like a nice moment of partnership as opposed to the one sided Goren show...
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Post by tjara on Mar 31, 2009 5:14:33 GMT -5
Confession Time. I'd never seen a single Nicole episode until yesterday when Anti-Thesis aired. Of course, I've read about her - it can't be avoided - but I never checked the specific threads for Nicole eps as not to be spoiled completely. I do get a kick out of the fact that I'll see the first and (to date) last Nicole ep "Frame" within a couple of days. It'll be very interesting.
I hope Patcat will forgive me for ignoring some of her questions, but I still felt my feelings for this episode should be placed in this thread.
This is a very engaging episode, we get more info on our favorite detective, we meet a criminal that really messes with him, too, and it's the first time someone gets away. I was uttterly surprised by Eames snark at the end and I didn't understand it at first, but after someone pointed out that Eames was alluding to the fact that Nicole got away, I have to say I'm all for that. That was what she was saying, she was saying "Did you really expect to catch her..."
I liked the Moby Dick scene... the idea of hiding the tall Goren in the back of the class-room was great. It was clever how the camera was set up. But I also think the scene is quite revealing about both Goren and Nicole. They both see in Moby Dick what could be said about themselves. Goren's relentless pursuit of evil just like Nicole's fascination with dominance/sexuality. Without having seen any other Nicole eps, I think it's quite certain that she has been sexually absued as a child. Her desire to be someone else & to be in control and to sexualize everything are among behaviors that have commonly been viewed in victims of child abuse.
This episode led me to wonder HOW FAR they'd planned to take the Nicole character when she first appeared. I tend to believe that APOI was planned when Anti-Thesis was written (really to conclude the storyline), but maybe nothing more. I don't think she was intended to be the nemesis she turned out to be when this was written. But the episodes seemed to be well perceived, and this is why she was brought back. Hence also to "contrived" feeling that others have mentioned. I'm actually not in the best position to comment.
I don't think it's more than a coincidence that Nicole and Eames are both small blondes. Because that's where there similiarties end, even in looks. Eames is a very "plain" beauty, with wonderful cheekbones, little make-up and very "fine" facial lines. Eames never looks like she has to put a lot of effort into her looks. Nicole is different, acutally much more "mainstream" than Eames, she looks like she does put a lot of effort into her looks (lots of make-up) and also she dresses completely different. Heck, I think Samantha Buck and Alicia Witt looked more alike than these two, so I think it's really just a coincidence.
I didn't see any attraction between Nicole and Bobby when they first met. I'd argue that VDO and Olivia have a great deal of chemistry, and this was transferred to the screen (even more so during the interrogation), but it wasn't the characters but the actors. They bantered, and Bobby always does. Remember Jones - if the need arises, he can be charming as hell. I actually think that the meeting was pivotal for Nicole, because just as Bobby assessed her, she assessed him. And she met someone who was equal to her, someone who she wanted to manipulate und control, because she sensed his power over other people. And this is something she cannot deal with because of her history. I think this is why she engages him... and why she has to engage him again later on.
Yet I would argue that Nicole actually is the type of woman that Bobby likes or is interested in, at least in the early seasons. I think this is why the academic setting was picked, because the Nicole character needed to be an intellectual just like Bobby.
Bobby was always depicted as a "Gentleman" and a guy with excellent taste. This is not to say that he's a snob or likes women that are. It's somewhat curious that while he strives to "live good & with style" he defies that upper class. I guess what he really defies is the falsity that accompanies it. He deals fine with them as long as they're honest people. I wouldn't even argue that he wants a woman from the upper class. However I think he looks for a very smart lady who can engage him intellectually. He needs that challenge. And, because he himself likes "style", he likes women with style. I think the early Bobby Goren was drawn up to be the "Anti-Thesis" to his father - well mannered, well educated and with great respect for women. I'd also like to say that I think that has changed over time because he's become "weaker" and less of a Gentleman in the past Seasons. But I'd also say that his love-life has suffered considerably ever since the Start of Season 6. I mean we never really were privy to information, but in early seasons there was the notion that he did have the occasional fling. I'm curious if any of that will come back or if they'll "ship it up". (IMHO, they can't do both convincingly) Boy, did I just make sense at all?
I also don't see the bisexual streak. He's playing the shoe salesman, nothing more. From how I perceived Bobby to be, certainly had that "strong guy" image. Of course he can be very gentle, well-mannered and thoughtful, but he's also just got that spark of "I'll protect my girlfriend" (or let's say "Knight in Shining Armor") that women are attracted to. And that so does not allow for the gay streak.
As for saving Nicole, I think he's always beyond being saved, simply because she doesn't want to be saved. She cannot admit to that "sparkling little girl" because she needs the control. This is why she tries to turn tables on Bobby during the interrogation. (but I wonder why they allowed her a notepad and a pencil?) For Nicole, control is everything, and it seems fitting for a victim of child abuse. Tis is were she's similiar to Bobby, because at least in the interrogation room setting he needs to be in control.
I'm torn about how much of his "letting Nicole in" was an act and how much wasn't. I mean, he had to expect that she'd looked into him, that she'd have information. Maybe he didn't know how much info she'd gathered... But I think that when he first answered her question, he really was going for "tit for tat". He thought he could get her to talk like that. And he almost did, in the end...
Maybe what unsettled him was that she knew which questions to ask much more than that she had the info... She knew how to control people by asking the right questions. However, I like the Goren reaction. Just like in Badge he repells (and slams his hand onto the table) and then he evades and regroups before attacking again. When I see him acting like this, I really get worked up about "Smile" again. That was just so unlike Goren!!
Of course it could, remember "See Me". I mean most of that info is more of a plot device, IMHO. It's more important that she hurts him with the personal info that the info itself. From what I know about other Nicole ep, this factor will be more important later on.
I think there many manipulators in this ep (as someone else has written, so I won't expand on that anymore), and many victims. Even the new head of the department, Nicole's lover. Look at how she reacts in the final scene. She's completely let down, and Nicole manipulated her. And then there's the eternal student, another victim of manipulation... it seems that one of the only one that wasn't manipulated was the acutal victim, Winthrop. Another Anti-Thesis?
Anti-Thesis really is a fitting title for this episode. There are many of these in it, just like many manipulators. It's an excellent episode, one I'm sure I'll see more often, if only to enjoy VDO's fine performance.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 31, 2009 13:59:16 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, Tjara.
I've often thought that one reason Nicole is obsessed with Bobby is because she knows he suffered through a great deal and not only survived it but became a good man. And she doesn't know how that's possible.
Patcat
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Post by outerbankschick on Mar 31, 2009 15:40:04 GMT -5
You hit it, Patcat. Bobby confused the hell out of Nicole because she expected everyone who suffered to behave as she did, or to feel the same way she did. She just didn't understand how Bobby could have risen above all of that and turned out to be a good person.
And Tjara, it's going to take me a few more views of your comments to digest them all but let me say that you hit the essence of all that was good about this episode. Of course, I also admit to being one of those who really liked Nicole's character and how she and Bobby played off each other. I was completely fascinated the first time I saw this ep because no one had ever - ever! - gotten the best of our Bobby before. It knocked me on my butt to watch that happen, and then watch how he turned it back around on her.
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Post by tjara on Apr 1, 2009 15:49:32 GMT -5
I really enjoy Nicole, too, OBC!
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