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Post by outerbankschick on Mar 1, 2009 22:09:30 GMT -5
A very short, maybe too simplified comparison of the B/A relationship to the E/O relationship:
Elliot and Oliva have the usual, totally not subtle, TV relationship. There's good chemistry, the fans have been screaming for years, sex sells (the promise of it seems to sell even more, without actually delivering), and they go for the obvious.
Bobby and Alex have a real, actual relationship. They're partners, they're friends. They get upset with each other (okay, maybe Alex gets irritated with him more than he with her, but who's counting). But it's like watching a scene from your own life when you watch them.
That scene in Purgatory. . .wow! Who hasn't had a blowup like that with someone close? The wounded look on Bobby's face, the absolute anger (with the pain beneath) on Alex's face, was so realistic. It wasn't TV type angst. It was art imitating life.
All four actors are good. I'm not saying they aren't. It's a difference, as someone else mentioned, in the way the actors play things out and also the way the shows are written.
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Post by tjara on Mar 2, 2009 4:07:48 GMT -5
I actually think the G/E lost a lot of their subtelty in Season 6 & 7, too. We're being hit over the head with some of the stuff, IMHO. To not go completely off topic here - I think Smile is the perfect example. Eames comment seemed to come a little bit out of nowhere, just like Gorens questions. As I've commented farther back, I don't think Goren usually has the "guts" to just ask these kinds of questions right away. When something hits him, he needs time to assemble his thoughts. Goren is anything but straight-forward when it comes to his own life or personal relationships. Just think of "Third Horseman", when Eames really had to push him for an answer to get his oppinion on abbotion. Or "The Faithful", when all he says is that he has a lot of experience dealing with crazy people...
While Eames comment is less of a bummer after I've watched the scene again, and again, I still think it's an out-of-character moment for both characters and I think it shows in VDO's and KE's acting, too. I think it would've been better if they had left us off with Leslie's comment and both characters possibly pondering over the matter.
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leanonme
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Post by leanonme on Mar 2, 2009 10:22:36 GMT -5
I think its pretty simple, Meloni and Hargitay have an incredible chemistry. I was watching SVU last night and I kept thinking they should be together. I am not one who would normally want that considering Elliot's married status. But they just seem like they belong together. Although I am not a regular SVU watcher, I have seen enough to see that they have crossed some serious boundaries. Last night I was watching it thinking, "What the hell Elliot? Why are you out with her in the middle of the night when work is over? Don't you have a family?" But at the same time, they were great together. You sort of feel like poor Elliot married the wrong woman.
I am not a CI shipper, so I obviously don't think VDO and KE have the same type of chemistry. Whether the actors play it up, or the writers do, for me, it just isn't there. I don't think it is only me, or there would be the same amount of shipper intensity going on over CI as goes on over SVU (or seems to be from my limited exposure to it all). If I ever saw G/E in a situation like I saw E/O last night, I think I would never turn CI on again. It just seems creepy. I love the chemistry the VDO and KE have, but it just isn't the same thing. I think that part of the problem is that they have tried to make it the same thing.
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leanonme
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Post by leanonme on Mar 2, 2009 10:33:23 GMT -5
In fairness to both of them, collegial relationships are extremely complicated, aren't they? It is never just a friendship, IMHO. There are also parallel relationships to authority and issues such as favoritism and advancement to be negotiated. I think that Eames' and Goren's tendency in the past has been to be in their own little crime-solving world; however, of late, reality has intervened. ) Those relationships really are more complicated. It might be interesting to see more of how the reality of the job has intervened. I would certainly rather see that than shipper drama. I like the picture of G/E in their own little crime solving world. It might be interesting to see them deal with more than that. I am talking on the job here, not so much personally. .
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leanonme
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Post by leanonme on Mar 2, 2009 10:43:17 GMT -5
I actually think the G/E lost a lot of their subtelty in Season 6 & 7, too. We're being hit over the head with some of the stuff, IMHO. To not go completely off topic here - I think Smile is the perfect example. Eames comment seemed to come a little bit out of nowhere, just like Gorens questions. As I've commented farther back, I don't think Goren usually has the "guts" to just ask these kinds of questions right away. When something hits him, he needs time to assemble his thoughts. Goren is anything but straight-forward when it comes to his own life or personal relationships. Just think of "Third Horseman", when Eames really had to push him for an answer to get his oppinion on abbotion. Or "The Faithful", when all he says is that he has a lot of experience dealing with crazy people... . OK, with your comparisons here tjara, I am falling off the- I'm abstaining- from-comparing- current- and -old- Goren wagon ( AKA Goren north vs. Goren South). Goren doesn't have the guts NOW, but he did then. Oh my gosh, I can't even stand to compare the scenes you mentioned. He might not have been forthcoming, but he had the guts. Listen to his TONE in "The Faithful" or "3rd" vs. that whine he lays out in "Smile". That is what just KILLS me about the current CI. Where the hell did Goren go? He asks every question in a tentative, whiney way that drives me NUTS. He walks around like a wounded child, rather than a man who was wounded as a child. *** deep breath, ok, sorry, I am off to stop-complaining-and-accept-it rehab.
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Post by tjara on Mar 2, 2009 12:33:25 GMT -5
Hey LOM, I would, but cannot compare the exact tone (dubbing - I could so live without that! ). Maybe one day when they do release Season 7 on DVD. And while Goren might have the attitude back then, he just isn't the one to ask personal questions if it involves himself, IMHO. It's the "compartments" that Patcat mentioned somewhere else...
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leanonme
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Post by leanonme on Mar 2, 2009 15:32:58 GMT -5
tjara, Well, that is interesting. Like I said, he isn't forthcoming, but his whole demeanor is different. Some people can accept the difference, but I obviously have had a tougher time with it. It would be interesting to see how much of that change is conveyed in the dubbing. Maybe that is what I need to do, watch current CI in another language. ;D
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Post by outerbankschick on Mar 2, 2009 16:03:54 GMT -5
This is where it gets too real. Bobby is a wounded child. He never got over it. All of his life he covered that boy, made a life out of covering him, and he never let him heal from those wounds. Losing Frances, finding out about Brady, finally having the "answer" to his father's distance, Frank's downward spiral, his hasty decision to put himself in peril at Tates for a nephew he hardly knows. . .all of those things taken together may look like "soap" to some (and I suppose one could make the argument they are) but to me, it's the consequences of Bobby's refusal to deal with his pain. His carefully built world was nothing more than a house of cards and when the strong wind blew, down it went. I suppose this is why I feel so strongly about the Goren North/South thing. Goren North was a man who was not dealing with anything deep. He buried his pain, shut people out, and did a good job of staying that way. Goren South lost all those defenses when Frances got sick. I would even go so far as to say he started losing his grip back when Nelda got too close. Those walls were already crumbling, the pain was announcing itself, and he did what he always does. He ignored it. He covered it. He's a volcano. He churns and sulks and holds it all in. And then, when the pressure rises to the boiling point, he erupts. TWAH was a mini-eruption. Losing it with Frank in Untethered was a bigger one. Tearing up the autopsy room in Frame was a huge one. I know, I know. . .I'm showing my sappy side, but the emotion of it, the destructive pain that's all over his face in so much of S6-7 just grabs me. He's so human. He's got flaws. He's not perfect. I love it. This is the moment when he needs someone (Eames!) to grab him and give him a good, hard shake and tell him to stop burying his pain. She did a little of that in Purgatory. I think she needs to do it again. She's the only one he halfway listens to and therefore the one who could probably get through. Of course, I'm aware that there are a lot of people who wouldn't want to actually see her have this kind of heart-to-heart with him. But it doesn't have to be soapy. If it was done right, it would be two friends, sharing a drink or a meal, and having a real life conversation about his self-destructive behavior. Friends sometimes have to have those kinds of talks.
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Post by tjara on Mar 2, 2009 17:33:49 GMT -5
Maybe that is what I need to do, watch current CI in another language. ;D What shall I say - be careful what you wish for? Have fun watching! ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alf-0hhxNz0I will have to say that I acutally think that VDO's/Goren's (I'd have to check, but it's likely he's VDO is not always dubbed by the same guy) german voice is not too bad and in many instances he does a decent job at dubbing him. Yet I do prefer the original versions whenever I can get them. The english language uses different expressions to convey a meaning, and some things just don't translate. I think that if you say he's whiny, LOM - then the dubbing in that scene must be off, because he's rather neutral. Actually, now that I come to think of it, when he responds to Leslie, he right out flat (it doesn't match VDO face at all) and when he asks Eames, he sounds rather flat, too... mabye that's why it's so out of character for me. Because I would agree with some of what OBC wrote (while I just stand by my theory, when attacked and hit "spot-on", Goren repells and thinks about it before asking a question... but whatever...)
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 3, 2009 8:20:41 GMT -5
No, the German voice over actors got it right. In this particular case, Goren was very subdued when he asks Eames if it's true that she feels that he tainted her career. As if he's afraid of the answer, but needs to know the truth. I wonder if he expected the answer she gave him. Or was he surprised. LOM is also right - Bobby has been whiny. Hard to explain ,but whiny isn't always how you say something, but also what you say. IMO, Goren was whiny when he confronted Ross about his possible guilt in Frank's death. He didn't talk in a whiny voice, but his actions were that of a wounded child. Which brings me to OBC's fantastic post up page. Do we want Goren continually acting like a wounded child? He has been, and maybe it was a good thing for him to vent. But it's getting old, and he needs to get his sh*t together when he's doing his job. Save the angst for those off hours when he isn't solving crimes. Sorry, OBC
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Post by Patcat on Mar 3, 2009 9:36:09 GMT -5
I agree with OBC--Bobby is a wounded child. Terribly wounded. But I think he was on the way back when Declan Gage blindsided him. I also think that Alex's anger at him in PURGATORY was justified. She said some things that she needed to say. Now, she did pick the wrong time to say them--I think Bobby had to keep her in the dark for several reasons--but it's understandable why her anger at Bobby would cause her to say what she said when she said it.
I think that Bobby and Alex have thrashed all this out between themselves. They're operating on a high level of trust by the time of FRAME.
I don't see Bobby as whining. Whining is complaining when you have nothing to complain about. Bobby has plenty to complain about. I want him to get better, but I don't want it to happen all at once. For one thing, it wouldn't be believable for him to recover completely immediately. For another, watching Mr. D'Onofrio take Goren through his recovery could be very enjoyable.
I have hopes Goren will be recovering this season, thanks to the recent photos of Mr. D'Onofrio with shorter hair and reports that he's been seen wearing suits again on the LOCI set.
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Mar 3, 2009 10:39:20 GMT -5
Maybe that is what I need to do, watch current CI in another language. ;D What shall I say - be careful what you wish for? Have fun watching! ;D www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9Y5dg-0Ji8I will have to say that I acutally think that VDO's/Goren's (I'd have to check, but it's likely he's VDO is not always dubbed by the same guy) german voice is not too bad and in many instances he does a decent job at dubbing him. Yet I do prefer the original versions whenever I can get them. The english language uses different expressions to convey a meaning, and some things just don't translate. I think that if you say he's whiny, LOM - then the dubbing in that scene must be off, because he's rather neutral. Actually, now that I come to think of it, when he responds to Leslie, he right out flat (it doesn't match VDO face at all) and when he asks Eames, he sounds rather flat, too... mabye that's why it's so out of character for me. Because I would agree with some of what OBC wrote (while I just stand by my theory, when attacked and hit "spot-on", Goren repells and thinks about it before asking a question... but whatever...) so sad you miss out on that wonderful voice of his.
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Post by tjara on Mar 3, 2009 11:25:17 GMT -5
DonnaJoThanks for clearing that up. I still think there's an odd mismatch in the voice and VDO's expression when he replies to Leslie, but maybe I've just to find the english clip of that. ragincajunLuckily, it's not as bad these days anymore. Maybe 10-15 years ago, it was really bad, because you had virtually no chance to ever come by original versions. Since there's YouTube and other similar sites it's actually quite easy to see clips if you just want to hear the actual voices. Years ago it used to be really weird for me, but it's not anymore, you get used it - I almost hear no difference anymore (I know, weird, but it's really like that). Nowadays, the Austrian Network even broadcasts some original versions - well acutally you get to pick if you wanna watch dubbed or undubbed. This is how I started wawtching DH, or Grey's Anatomy... (but, sadly our provider has cut us off the nice ability to get the undubbed versions, it's got something to do with switiching to digital broadcasting ) But they don't offer it for all shows, anyway. Ever since shows started being put out on DVDs, you will always get the originals there, too. This was my main incentive to buy the Season 1 DVDs, the only ones I can get thus far. I like VDO's real voice, especially when he goes into a kind of "singing"-routine during interrogations. It's not really singing, but a kind of soft, high pitched voice. Hard to describe - he does it in "Jones", when he says "No, I think I'm onto something here."
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Post by Patcat on Mar 3, 2009 13:38:48 GMT -5
I'm in a pugnacious mood today. I'll blame on the low level flue (I think that's what it is) that put me in bed most of yesterday and makes me feel like I should've stayed there today. Anyway...
I dislike Elliott Stabler. (I have absolutely nothing against Christopher Meloni who's a fine actor and appears to be a good man. I want to stress this.) But Stabler strikes me as the sort of man who shouldn't be a cop. He's judgmental and quick tempered. He's way too quick to pull out a gun or use his fists. He seems to have a personal vendetta against the world and is using his job to carry it out. Maybe he's Catholic, but he only seems to bring that up when he's trying to avoid any commitment to Benson beyond their partnership or to force his wife to stay with him. I think he hides behind his religion, although I can't recall we've ever seen him actually going in a church (admittedly, I'm a less than casual viewer of SVU).
Yes, yes, he's in a difficult job and had some difficult choices thrust on him. But talk about whining...
I'm surprised that Benson, who has much more legitimate reasons to whine and doesn't, hasn't whacked him across the nose.
Perhaps this B/S vs. G/E needs a seperate thread?
Patcat (who may have a fever)
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Post by maherjunkie on Mar 3, 2009 14:13:30 GMT -5
He was in church when his children were being confirmed.
I just thought Eames was such a B***h in that ep. Those were her insecurities coming out, at the wrong time.
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