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Post by nwchimom on Oct 18, 2007 22:52:16 GMT -5
I agree, Techguy. The Nelda/Nicole thing with Leslie was way too much. When they had the meal together, then met by the water later, I thought "Nelda." And that was reinforced during the aria when Leslie said her boss needed to be mommied. That's what Nelda was all about. I also strongly suspect Leslie and Bobby got "involved" or were on the way to getting involved before she became a suspect. Watch the way Goren moves in when he puffs on the inhaler...like a lover. And Leslie's body reacts...she tilts her head up and moves in closer.
The final exchange between Goren and Eames disturbed me as well. When Eames said, "It's too late," she was still facing us. She turns to look at Goren for just a few seconds and when she turned back around I saw no smirk. I also didn't see an answering smirk from Goren. I think she meant it, and that really bothers me. Dick Wolf might be the anti-shipper, but I fear Warren Leight plans to break up the partnership.
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Post by hannah on Oct 18, 2007 23:05:26 GMT -5
"I'm sorry, but as far as we know Goren has solved everyone of his cases. Nothing against Eames, but her record of solving cases may not have been as high without Goren. I understand he's known for being quirky, but he gets his job done, and in 7 years it's never interfered with him doing his job (well maybe TWAT, but he shouldn't have been dragged in).
Here is a man who just solved her husband's murder and she says she used to but doesn't worry about it anymore. You know this show always makes it's seems like Eames is so wonderful and isn't she so patient to stay and back up her partner. Goren his a great cop, he produces. In real life, that's all that would matter."Doesn't stop him from having a... shady reputation. Even if in the end they get the case done. What can I say? The world's a shallow place. Her response was very Eames likes. And CI is about subtlety, right? We are left to infer, assume, guess, debate, dig and poke at the meanings of the unsaid. Well I don't believe Eames really gives a damn about her reputation anymore. Actually, she said something like that before, didn't she? Maybe in the beginning she was a bit alarmed but when she says it's too late now I think she means its too late for her to even care because she's stuck with him through all these years through everything. Everything that made him have a even worse reputation, things that made him look bad but, when it comes down to it she could never leave him. Too late for that because she does respect and genuinely care for him. Her not answering was enough. I don't think he was left thinking about what she meant. I think he just understood and there wasn't really any need for further explaining. I like that subtlety. They usually have that kind of line at the end that just ties it all up and won't be continued on next episode. So I don't think there is a fight coming on. She just tied up the loose ends. And another thing; I don't understand why you seem to think they make Eames out to be wonderful. Goren's usually gets more attention and is favored over Eames most of the time. They differ in opinions a lot and him solving her husbands case isn't going to change that It's kind of a good thing, I think. As for backing him up, I can name many instances where she has done so. She's done it in open court. She's staid longer then anyone else could. I don't think anyone really knows what's going on in his head until it unravels in front of you, so you're bound to get impatient
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Oct 19, 2007 0:30:30 GMT -5
Take a look at the aria scene when their confronting Leslie. At the beginning, Goren is wearing a blue blazer, when he over by Leslie's desk, it's now is grey pinstripe. Wardrobe made a goof. Not the first and won't be the last ;D
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Post by nwchimom on Oct 19, 2007 0:56:05 GMT -5
It's the same blazer. I think it just looked darker at first because of the lighting...when he moves behind the desk there is light coming in from the window, making everything in the scene brighter. If you take another look, you can see pinstripes even when the jacket appears darker. (Right now he's in front of the desk again and the side facing the window looks gray, but the other side looks blue.)
On another note, I just love the vocabulary the writers give Ross. "So she's a career fabulist..." I thought I heard that last word wrong at first, so I looked it up. Sure enough, it's someone who writes/creates fables, a liar.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Oct 19, 2007 1:07:37 GMT -5
Yep, you sure are right!!! It's amazing how lighting can make such a difference. I can't wait until I can afford a 36in flat screen with HD.
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Post by deathroe on Oct 19, 2007 1:39:14 GMT -5
Further thoughts. *s* Yeah, I know. Let me just say before I start that if they broke up Eames and Goren qua partnership I might stop watching. That if they made Eames a one-dimensional biatch I would be so disappointed that I probably WOULD stop watching. And that the partnership dynamic in this episode DID sit as uneasily with me as it did with some others (tho that might again be explained by the filming order). That said, (1) the more cogent question to me even than "why put in that E/G bit at the end?" is, why put in the Nelda motif at all?? It really did seemed tacked on, and I'd really like to think that Goren has learned a bit more than the insertion of a new Nelda figure would suggest. OTOH Eames' reaction to what Goren's doing by cultivating Leslie is markedly different than her reaction to his cultivation of Nelda. "He's playing her!" she told Deakins contemptuously at that point. Here, she just gives Goren a knowing look when he comes in and mentions Leslie giving him the memo. Perhaps Eames is less confident now--she would like to think that Goren has learned something from his previous experiences but sees him slipping into familiar patterns. That said--Goren is still in control of the Leslie situation. He usually is, by the end, isn't he? (2) The suggestion at the end that Leslie will "always being number two"--mirrors her taunt to Goren that he will never make senior partner. This may be another episode where the crime, however clumsily, mirrors the Eames-Goren partnership. Leslie's line about "I carried that idiot's water for seven years"--NOTE, seven--also seems to mirror the partnership. Now--and this may be an unpopular opinion--I don't think we should be too hard on Eames. I cannot imagine that Bobby is easy to deal with. If, as Leight and co. seem to be insisting, Bobby is viewed as a whackjob by the world at large (I do not see myself that there is historical precedent for this, but you know, whatever)--if so, then Eames will inevitably take on some of that difficulty. In S6, I saw her as suffering in silence and enduring for his sake (TWAH). She may come across as guarded in her emotions or even as B***hy, but she is extremely loyal. Which is why (returning to the end) I don't feel as bad as I might about Eames' answer of "too late" to Goren's question. She may feel that her loyalty is being tested unduly. I know I would. To me there was something almost affectionate about it. I was wrong that she had her back to us through most of the exchange, but we don't quite see the look she gives him at the end, either. It reminds me of the scene in "Rocket Man" where Goren asks her if she thinks he's angry. Of late he seems to need a lot of reinforcement from her, and she may find that difficult. It IS very difficult to reinforce another person all the time. I don't think she's a saint, but she is a large part of this man's stability, and that cannot be easy. (3) On a more basic level: if "Amends" was written after this one, that would probably explain some of the harshness too ... (4) I didn't like what I saw as all the SVU overtones for this week and next (dead children, bondage)--I can understand them wanting to sell the show that way, though, I guess. KE's expressed dislike of crimes involving children seemed palpable in the acting. Meanwhile, Goren's rehearsal of the child victims' names at the end was very affecting; their concern contrasted with Leslie's horrific shallowness ("stupid" children). ** I can only presume we're going to get more of this sort of thing, even with more "classic" storylines. I think it may be wishful thinking to want them to return to their old, snappy selves; thus, what I would like to see is age, understanding, wisdom, resolution, and mutual regard. Regardless of what you feel about there being UST there (and I do think the actors play it that way, sometimes, but that's a separate issue)--regardless, such resolution would certainly be nice. [edit: sorry about the blank space. No idea where it came from ]
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Post by Patcat on Oct 19, 2007 2:24:07 GMT -5
I felt this episode was all over the place. Even in this era of foxes in the chicken coop in so many federal agencies, would such a cozy relationship between a drug company and the FDA go on? Was Shorr guilty of anything? All of those relationships confused the heck out of me.
And I have to go with Techguy on Leslie's "research" of Goren and Eames. For one thing, I'm not sure she had the time--for another, I'm not sure she got their relationship right. I don't think Eames is particularly interested in being a Captain (she's frequently stated in the past she's not in the job to be noticed, in spite of Goren's efforts to encourage to do things that would get her noticed). I also believe there have been cases where Goren has taken the lead role. As long as he's with Eames, he'll be the junior partner by the fact she's senior in experience to him. I think that at this point in their careers, neither of them expects or wants to be part of the Brass, a fact which probably makes them a puzzle to many other cops.
But I felt Leslie's attack on both of them was just gratuitous--it didn't make any sense except for a reason for that rather puzzling concluding scene. I'd like to take Eames' reaction as a "we've already been through all of this before I know you're not going to hurt me and I don't want to be a Captain" moment.
But there a lot of things I liked. Rodger's increased role, Goren's interaction with the cigarette salesman, Goren and Eames' quiet indignation at the kids' deaths. And I liked the way Ross worked with his detectives and vice versa. I keep harping on this, but it took Deakins at least a year to trust them--Ross appears to be on the same schedule.
Leslie was trying to play Goren, but I don't believe he was played. Once he was on to her, he didn't hesitate for a second. I saw nothing as murky as his contact with Nelda.
I liked the way Goren disarmed the disturbed mother. And I may be in the minority here, but I thought the actress' performance was fairly low key.
Patcat
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 19, 2007 7:21:20 GMT -5
Forgive me if I'm off base here but maybe Major Case was called in for this one because of the tampering of the mouthwash - like tampering with tylenol capsules - to safeguard the public interest? At the end of the day, though, however flimsy the connection as to why they're involved, it's only to push along the story.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 19, 2007 7:31:51 GMT -5
I really need to watch this episode again, but a few things disturbed me. As Deathroe & others have mentioned, I don't see the historical precedent of Goren's bad rep, or where this research info is that Leslie found that condemns Goren? The only thing I can think of is the article about Croyden's suicide being blamed on Goren (I'm sure the "retraction" on that was on page 85 & no one noticed). She wouldn't be privy to his personnel file, which I can't see having anything but repeated instances of his 99% solve rate. No, the writers are setting us up for a Goren & Eames conflict. That last exchange between them seemed like a writer's afterthought. Writer's who forgot that Eames stated in Season 1 that she didn't take the job to get noticed. Unless she's changed her mind about that. I agree with Patcat about the senior partner barb. Isn't a senior partner simply the one with more experience? So, if Goren was partnered with Falacci, let's say, he would be the senior partner. As long as Eames is his partner, he will be junior to her. What I also don't get (and don't like) is his hurtful expression & reaction at Leslie's comments. Why give her the satisfaction of a response to her taunts? Goren acted like a wounded high school kid, letting this evil woman so obviously get to him emotionally. He would never have given that response to Nicole. Did he care for her? Or was it just business? I need to replay the restaurant scene & the boat scene again (and again) My favorite line : Company Exec: "I see you don't like successful people." Goren (with a smile): "Who Does?"
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Post by ragincajun on Oct 19, 2007 7:39:55 GMT -5
I knew something was up with the way Leslie was looking at Bobby on there first meeting. Then when she gave him the second card. She was being too helpful, especially after cutting the other guy off who wanted to help get the product off the shelf. After Leslie and Eames both said their hurtful comments to Bobby, I actually called them both Biotches to the Tv. Poor Bobby, Whack job one week and now this. His mom dies and all he has now is his work and partner, and Now he feels he isnt good at that and bringing his partner down. I sure hope he isnt heading for a drinking or some sort of breakdown, heaven help him when he goes undercover in the psych ward.
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Post by ragincajun on Oct 19, 2007 7:42:18 GMT -5
Forgive me if I'm off base here but maybe Major Case was called in for this one because of the tampering of the mouthwash - like tampering with tylenol capsules - to safeguard the public interest? At the end of the day, though, however flimsy the connection as to why they're involved, it's only to push along the story. They were first brought in for the murder of a Park Avenue dentist, the Mouthwash came later.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Oct 19, 2007 8:06:22 GMT -5
Just to throw this into the mix... as much as the tag ending disturbed me -- I dislike tension between Goren and Eames -- on one level Eames just told him the truth. Harsh, probably, but she always seems to give him the gift of truth...
It did all seem to come out of nowhere... but on rewatching it, I think we're being set up for the crazy Goren episode. Leslie accused him of being unreliable and ready to snap (more or less)... so I would guess that that tension is being created now to feed into some future episode. On second viewing there is that awkward moment between Goren and Eames coming out of the Harlem practice and Goren gets all stuttery asking Eames to talk to the wife while he talks the the swipes guy... just a little odd note there... they are usually more in tune. But perhaps significant post Amends and pre whatever they got up their sleeves...
But really folks... do we need the partner drama? Aren't crazy knife wielding mothers, and manipulative backstabbing women enough for one episode?!
All in all I guess it was a disturbing episode in many ways ... the end, the dead kids (the look on Goren's face when they're looking at the dead little sister was amazing!), the Nelda clone. But it was also a nice episode with some complexity, and Goren and Ross seemed to be on the same page.
to quote Goren... "I smell blood in the water..."
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Post by nwchimom on Oct 19, 2007 8:47:56 GMT -5
I can only presume we're going to get more of this sort of thing, even with more "classic" storylines. I think it may be wishful thinking to want them to return to their old, snappy selves; thus, what I would like to see is age, understanding, wisdom, resolution, and mutual regard. Regardless of what you feel about there being UST there (and I do think the actors play it that way, sometimes, but that's a separate issue)--regardless, such resolution would certainly be nice. Deathroe, your calm reasoning tends to make me slow down and feel better about things, so I appreciate your late night posts. However, the more I think about last night's episode the more discouraged I get. It's almost funny that just Wednesday night I read something someone said about Dick Wolf, that he's the anti-shipper. And my immediate thought was, "Forget the anti-shipper...we should be praying that Warren Leight doesn't break up the partnership." And then we get Smile (written by Leight, I believe). Last night's episode had all the old fanfic cliches: St. Alex, the one who stayed with crazy Goren. As others have said, where did that come from? We never heard that Goren had multiple partners before Eames, or that everyone thought he was, well, the whack job. Other than annoying Carver, Goren's rep seemed to be a great one...27 convictions from 27 bust with Narcotics, some number of successful hostage rescues. And he and Eames solved nearly every case we saw them tackle. It's as if Leight is saying, "Ok, you want the old show? Fine, here's your aria, your psycho Nelda/Nicole foil, but in return you must sell me the soul of the show...no more Goren and Eames of old." I would expect to see, as Deathroe said, understanding, wisdom, resolution, and mutual regard. Last season's *drama* wasn't enough? We have to destroy Bobby and Alex's partnership, too? Well, if they're going to destroy the soul of this show, I don't want to bear witness.
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rangerhm
Silver Shield Investigator
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Post by rangerhm on Oct 19, 2007 8:51:30 GMT -5
I happened to love this episode, I think it harkens back to earlier episodes.
As for Eames wanting to be a Captain, she would have to take the Captain's exam, which I think she would pass with flying colors. And in real life, if she were passed over because of who her partner was, she would own the NYPD and the City of NY from the lawsuit she would file!
Just my two cents.
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Post by ragincajun on Oct 19, 2007 9:34:03 GMT -5
Ok watched it again, Gunna nick pick a little. At the beginning, would a crazy woman bother putting on gloves to kill the dentist? Ok I know thats so we don't know who killed him, but I don't think she would have put them on. Also is Eames competeting with Witt, did I notice a little more cleavage? Also when the Bald guy brought her the paper that the boydied, they did a kinda slow pan down her chest. Also Loved the fact that the the secretary said that Leslie wore Red when she wanted something. But had to rewind, to see that she wore Red when she met Goren on the Ferry, But not when they had dinner. Also Seems Alex and Bobby were upset that the Doctor didn't sexually abuse the kids. Guess cause that meant the Crazy woman killed him for nothing and he was innocent.
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