Quick thoughts tonight...loved Goren's "Italian hand gesture" to the homicide cop who said, "You're Major Case...you tell me."
Goren's escalating anger and actions made my stomach hurt. I know, it's silly...but I really don't like where Goren is headed. When there was no big explosion by the end of the episode I was both relieved and strangely disappointed. Eames' increasing frustration with him didn't help matters.
In other threads Deathroe has made the point about the lack of subtlety and intelligence in the writing of late. I thought the references to Declan Gage and mentors were ham fisted and clumsy. Ok, we get it...Goren was projecting his feelings about his mentor onto Schill, the writers' mentor. Stop beating us over the head.
Loved Eames telling Ross about the bad bosses board and Ross' comeback.
Yeah, I agree about the "subtle as a brick" approach to hint dropping with the Declan stuff. Sheesh. Give us a little credit, eh? I mean, lots and lots of people have been watching this show with varying degrees of attention to detail for six years. It's OK to have things go over some viewers heads some of the time....besides, that's what makes obsessive repeat viewing fun
I too found myself concerned over the obvious "Goren is getting violent" angle they seemed to be pushing. In part because like the "Goren is unstable" angle of a couple of episodes ago it seems to be getting layered in from nowhere. But also because I don't like this road for Goren, and it worries me a great deal.
While I have my peeves with the writing, in reference to Goren's manhandling in this episode I thought it was all acted brilliantly. Because even though the writing has faltered, I GOT what they were portraying, and Eames' discomfort struck me. Her concerned "Bobby" at the boxing place cinched it, even though she knew what Goren was up to...it was still freaking her out, and in a way that was different than it has been before.
BUT, other than that bit of grousing which might lead one to think otherwise, I enjoyed this one. It had a bit more of an old school feel to me, no music video opening, no Excessive Personal Drama, and some good scenes and exchanges that made me immediately want to see them again.
I may actually rewatch this one tomorrow morning with my coffee. LOVED the bit where the young gal describes the boyfriend as "really black" and Goren retorts, "You mean like obsidian?" Heh.
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Nov 16, 2007 6:58:09 GMT -5
I did watch the episode a few times last night, couldn't sleep. I found the "Bobby" comment by Eames, to be more like they both were playing him, to see if he was as tough as he stated in his books. Hence the comment afterward by Goren about now knowing he wasn't in prison because he turned his back to them. If Eames was really upset with Goren, she would have stood up to him more, she has in the past. Eames is good about leveling Bobby's enthusiasm (cough, cough).
I think the writers and USA are hoping that that since the show has moved to USA that there are new viewers. I think they want to keep them tuned in, so a little back story to explain things now and then is needed so as not to lose their interest. Plus, Eames has a right to be pissed about meeting Declan, she almost died because of it. Eames anger to me didn't seem directed at Bobby, but at Declan. Eames herself has had mentors that have failed, such as Maureen Pergolis.
The only scene were Bobby did get physical, was when he did bend the writer's hand played by Peter Coyote. On one had, yeah, his frustration level is a bit shorter these days, but he does so far know his limits. I'm not saying I'm thrilled about it, but I can see that finding out your father may be a serial killer somewhat liberating (said tongue and cheek).
Also, we seem to have been given our answer about the pulling of their fire arm. Eames definitely puts her hand on her gun whenever she feels threatened. Bobby just gets in their face. This time however the perp was taller then Goren, he had to look up.
I know we've been told to be patient about where Goren is heading emotionally & mentally, but Jeeeezz!
Goren's anger towards Coyote's pompous character didn't ring true enough for me to believe it. I don't see how he reminds Bobby of Declan Gage enough to provoke that kind of reaction. And I HATED that Goren twisted his skinny little wrist, making him shreak & forcing him into his seat. It's bullying - he was an old man. And why was it so important to Bobby that the man admit he was a fraud? Am I missing something? At least he redeamed himself by taking on a more equal opponent at the boxing ring. I enjoyed that scene immensely! Especially when he taunted T.J. by holding the bag & then readied himself by handing Eames his badge.
Poor Eames....she had her stressful moments as Bobby's partner in this episode. Yet she was the Eames we all know & love & let it all slide because she knows her partner is doing his job - finding out the truth. Thatta girl!
Love that Eames' read a message board for info about the sleazoid editor - a little nod to us, the fans?
What happened to the "spoiler" from the article with Fisher Stevens? I thought I knew who the killer was.
Yeah, I agree about the "subtle as a brick" approach to hint dropping with the Declan stuff. Sheesh. Give us a little credit, eh?
I haven't seen the episode yet, but this comment hit me like a ton of bricks (pun intented). I didn't understand why I didn't have the urge to discuss more these past 2 seasons. Compared with the Logan/X, the Goren/Eames episodes left me with questions on different levels, I was always eager to come and read what caught people's attention. The discussions were varied: some noticed Goren's affect, others the psychological dynamics between the characters, some noticed the paintings and we even had discussions about furnitures and props.
Everything was intertwined to create a mood. Stories came first, but the rest was as important and the episode felt like a cohesive whole.
I missed the episode Smile and came online to read what I miss. After 2 or 3 pages of Eames last comment to Goren I stopped and said to myself: That's it? that's all I missed?
Is it still there and I don't see it? Am I just bored with CI and need something new? I don't know; I really don't!
Last night I realized I forgot to post the obsidian and Sherlock jokes...both were great. DonnaJo, I thought the same thing about Stevens! So I went back and reread it. He said he "hoped" he'd be the killer because they get the great scene at the end. I guess this makes up for the true spoiler we got from that extra in Amends.
I think Eames was concerned when Bobby twisted the hand/wrist of Schill, and during the gym scene...but she was able to temper it when they made the observation that TJ turned his back when walking away from a threat. Several times in this episode Eames glanced at Goren, brow furrowed, a frown on her face...it seemed to me she was really wondering if he'd lost it.
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Nov 16, 2007 9:56:13 GMT -5
I don't think Goren's anger was about Declan, that's why he says to Eames it's not about that, when speaking of mentors. My thinking was that it was more like how he felt in the Inside Man (?), where Goren states, "That you used her, and that really pisses me off."
I think in Goren's mind that this was even worse. Keira, was extremely bright, sweet, hard working, and very talented. She was also African American, and just like Goren and Eames, felt like the odd man out.
She was the only one of color with her college and work friends, yet she still felt ties to her family and childhood friends. I know the other receptionist stated that Keira laughingly referred to herself as the Token, but from the words in her book, you could feel her conflict and that she felt like a fraud, even though she wasn't. How horrible for Schill to use the word Token in his title, once again using Keira.
Not only did Schill steal Keira's work, but one so personal as depicting what it was like for Keira to excel as a young black woman in a world that seemed so far away from her home to Keira, made Schill's action even that more despicable.
Goren knew from readings Schill's other work, that he was a hack. That Schill made himself feel better by running down those around him, when he should have been encouraging and assisting them. Especially, someone as talented as Keira. Schill was a pompous ass who loved hearing himself talk.As soon as Schill met Keira, he knew he was going to steal her work, and that eventually, she would have to be killed.
Yes, Schill was an older man, and I don't agree with violence on anyone, especially the elderly, but Schill had regard for no one but himself, that pissed me off too. Plus, Goren couldn't have hurt him to much, as his hand/fingers were fine in the later scenes.
Schill even at the end didn't have any sympathy for anyone but himself. By having Schill at least admit what he did to Keira and say that he was a fraud, was at least one way for Goren to let Schill know what he was about. Even then Schill makes excuses for himself in his statement and never thinks of Keira.
Goren knew even then that he Schill killed Keira, even if someone else pulled the trigger. Remember Schill might have been long in the tooth, but he was evil and unrepentant. We know how Goren feels about unrepentant evil (Nicole). Not only did he steal Keira's book, set up TJ to take her life (which was long and painful), he got TJ taking drugs again.
The reason Goren plays with the puppet in Schill's office is because Schill is the puppet master. He arranges for Keira to write the review on TJ's book, so Schill can get TJ to murder Keira. At first I did feel bad about Goren squeezing Schill's hand, but in reality, he doesn't deserve our sympathy. He only receives it from us because we're human beings with a conscience.
Ham-handed, stiff, and yes, subtle as a ton of bricks. The actors, it seemed to me, all realized the quality of the material they were working with and half-sleepwalked through their performances. Why didn't they give Coyote's character a handlebar mustache so he could twist it? Mimi, my personal feeling is that different aspects of the show aren't being discussed more in depth because there is no depth here.
The only scene with any subtlety was the gym scene, which WAS fun. (My reading was that Eames was genuinely worried for a moment, and then, as it became obvious that Goren was proving that the kid was basically a coward who wouldn't engage in a standup fight with anyone, she got slightly amused as she realized what Goren was up to.)
It's a question of what's going to drive me to actual screaming first: hearing that cheapo synthesizer soundtrack whining one more time, or watching Erbe's face being disfigured by those ridiculous awnings of false eyelashes.
And, excuse me, but what on earth made Coyote's character think that the kid would obligingly kill Keira? He's never killed anyone, has apparently never committed a crime worse than pretending to be more of a criminal than he is. So Coyote, desperate to steal this girl's novel, feeds the kid some cocaine, shows him a bad review, and hands him a gun? Being absolutely certain that the kid will go out and shoot her to death? And the kid DOES?? What if the kid just said no? What if he went out and shot up some streetlights and got arrested and told police where he got the gun? What if he shot himself? What if he got indignant about Coyote trying to get him to kill someone and, high as a kite, shot Coyote instead? Any idiot could have seen how many ways this thing could have gone wrong. So it's supposed to be a triumph that Goren and Eames catch an idiot?
And this poor girl, by sheer coincidence, within a couple of hours, gets tortured by thugs after her boyfriend and then shot to death by someone for writing a bad review. Talk about your bad days.
Post by girlinblack on Nov 16, 2007 12:58:38 GMT -5
Um... I liked it.
I have to admit that I was a little bored during the first half, but the good moments made up for it... i.e. the jokes. I loved Goren twisting that guys arm into little bits. I loved him arresting the guy at the bookstore. I loved seeing Kate smile. I loved the scenes with Ross and Eames. I thought that the gym scene was awesome. I loved when Alex was like warning Bobby to chill out. He was being so alpha male. Loved it. - or how about when Goren touched Eames arm. It left me with a positive feeling... not the best I've seen, but not horrible either... it was good. I feel like they are paying attention to the fans this year.
An acquaintance who is African-American said she was amused that Goren knew the weave was synthetic hair. I guess I've never thought about it, but I would assume it's fairly obvious to tell fake hair of any kind, especially if it has been singed. Anyone with wig/weave experience care to shed a little light?
I'm somewhere in the middle in my reaction to this episode. There were parts I liked, some moments that stood out, and others that made me wince and grimace in frustration and disappointment. Unfortunately, the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts, mainly because of the lack of subtlety at crucial moments and being distracted by throwaway references that came across as gratuitous and attempts to grasp for dramatic effect. Whenever I get a sense of being spoon fed or hit over the head with details, that's when I find myself getting turned off and tuning out.
Waiting to exhale in regards to Goren's mental state has turned out to be more exhausting than interesting as Season 7 has moved along. Parsing his and Eames' every word and gesture for clues as to the status of their partnership has also begun to displace my analysis of the crime stories. I don't know which is worse, the angst and melodrama or the cryptic references suggesting future angst and melodrama. The G/E episodes this season are becoming more and more frustrating and disappointing in this regard, as I keep waiting for the next shoe to drop, for Goren and/or Eames to "lose it" with the ensuing scenery chewing to follow.
I could have done without the blatant lame references to mentors, specifically Declan Gage. I also could not buy into Goren's escalating anger toward Shill, telegraphed and delivered with absolutely no subtlety whatsoever. Are CI fans so clueless or dimwitted that we need to hear Eames say to Goren "I met your mentor" and Lionel Shill his "If I didn't know better, I'd say this was personal"? What annoyed me more than anything is this type of dialogue disrespects me as a viewer. I reject the idea that these references are intended to bring new viewers up to speed on what's gone down before. Excuse me, but that's what watching reruns is for. Why should the dialogue be dumbed down because new viewers need a point of reference? Please CI, show some respect for longtime CI fans who have been with the program from the beginning.
I also have a BIG problem accepting how Shill was such an extraordinary puppeteer he could provoke TJ to kill Kira with a few lines of coke and some verbal taunting. Once I reach the point where I can no longer suspend disbelief, I get lost in nitpicking details and the aria comes across as anti-climax which is what happened to me in "Self-Made." I regard this episode as one that was promising in its premise and characters but lacking in subtlety, execution, and resolution.
I did like the opening scene with the Homicide detective taking umbrage at MCS taking over the case. It underscored the territorial nature of police departments and the undercurrents of competition, envy, and outright hostility that can and does exist. I also thought the acting by the guest stars was very good, and would have liked to have seen more of Kira's boyfriend D Tour on screen and learned more about him. Bottom line: these characters belonged in a different story, one that wasn't so obviously setting the stage for potentially overblown G/E histrionics in an upcoming episode. The only thing missing from "Self-Made" is the music--"Something's Coming" from West Side Story would have been the appropriate choice.
Patrick Roy, 2006 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame
I finally get and accept that "old CI' that was so great is forever a thing of the past. I know, I'm a slow learner. However, even for "new CI," this was pretty bad.
"If I didn't know better, I'd think this was personal." All I can say to that is "WTF?" The other line about mentors was just too stupid to merit anything that passionate, for it I'm just leaving it at "LOL."
I am embarrassed for Peter Coyote, his part was laughable. He could have done such a great turn given some decent material. No way I believe that he was capable of orchastrating the vics murder. I don't believe he planned it from the beginning either. I just thing he heard opportunity knocking when he got the hysterical (and why the hell would she call him? she had plenty of friends, he wasn't one of them) phone call.
The hand twisting was comletely out of character for Goren. Goren does not assault suspects. Gratuitious and completely outside the scope of established Goren cannon. And that pisses me off.
I must have missed the reason why Eames is looking like a hussy this season. She was always a bit too casual for the office, but standards and necklines are hitting new lows every week.
On the plus side, I am digging Ross more and more. Bogosian is really stealing every scene he is in, and considering the company he is keeping, that is saying something.
I can't think of anything else nice to say about it, so I'll shut up.
But my DVR (yup, I skipped it in favor of the competition and watched it while folding laundry this afternoon) missed the last 5 minutes, presumably b/c of ads for some movie I'm never going to see . Was there a post script? The last I saw was the actual aria/arrests. Did I miss anything after the final commercial break?
Post by roots2rock on Nov 16, 2007 16:12:34 GMT -5
Well. . . Most of you have been right on about the episode. This could have been one of the best episodes thus far, but alas it did lack "depth." The writing is getting more "slack" and the characters one-dimensional to the point of BOREDOM! I consider myself the utmost fanatic "fantastic" CI fan--even if I am a rookie to the CI Boards. I think I was the first, maybe only one to write NBC/Baer about Sciorra's Barak character, which I described as wooden. They should have had Samantha Buck back as Logan's partner when they started alternating characters each week; she at least had persona. Do they have to continue doing this? Now I really like Wheeler's character and hope she does come back. Witt is painful to watch. I dream that when Wheeler returns, the show will also return to the original CI theme music. I keep hoping that they only changed the theme because of the temporary actor change--wishful hoping and praying! Maybe with the writer's strike they will have no choice but to keep re-running the classic episodes with the CLASSIC THEME, which I think set it apart from the other L&O family. It is so good that you can tap your foot to it and any dance if you want! I am so frustrated this season!
And I almost forgot, but Goren made a not so subtle reference to a ballistics "friend." There were a million less clumsy ways to have incorporated the gun information into the script, which has me thinking it to be a deliberate to hint at the dark haired ballistics cutie with whom there was definate chemsity in Albatross and whatever other ep she was in (they are, sadly, getting difficult to distinguish and quite forgettable).
Last Edit: Nov 16, 2007 16:18:50 GMT -5 by lovesong