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Post by deathroe on Nov 16, 2007 16:50:28 GMT -5
But I thought that the person who ran the gun was in New Jersey??
Sorry. Can't deal with Bobby G and Ms. Ballistica. She's way too young.
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 16, 2007 17:03:12 GMT -5
What I find disconcerting this season is the lack of reference to the bibles developed for each character by Rene Balcer. Granted, there are only two characters left from Balcer's initial cast, Goren & Eames. I'm not saying that characters can't change. They do, as people do. But there are basic personality & character traits that should remain constant. Goren using his keen mind to get what he needs from a suspect is key to the character. He isn't Stabler or even Logan. Arm twisting is what I might expect from them, not from him. Especially with no legitimate provocation.
What is also disturbing is what Kate Erbe said in one of her USA interviews, that she really didn't know where they were going with Goren. Which tells me that either she wasn't made privy to the plan, or that there isn't a plan, and the writers are winging it. That sounds dangerous to me, because that means the Goren character can go in any direction, even one that doesn't make sense or ring true.
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Post by deathroe on Nov 16, 2007 17:09:06 GMT -5
Oh, the frustration of not being able to get on these boards at work! I actually liked this episode. If you could see the wheels turning, well, at least they were being turned! Here are some random thoughts, since everyone else has covered things so well:
I didn't, curiously, find the mentor thing objectionable. I thought it was interesting that Eames was the one making the connection. I do, however, agree that they should just let up on Bobby G and let him be happy. I really need for him to have a happy breakthrough soon. And--yeah--subtlety.
While I have my peeves with the writing, in reference to Goren's manhandling in this episode I thought it was all acted brilliantly
Very well put, SarahIvy! I would watch those two do about anything, even so. But I dislike them turning Bobby G into Stabler. I've been watching SVU again, and perceive that Stabler really can be wonderful (don't hiiit me), but isn't the whole paradoxical point about L&O is that you have these formulaic stories, yet the characters are all individuals. (Except maybe the post-Kinkade lady ADAs, and I'm not much on the mothership post S5, but the rest of them are fabulous, Stabler and Benson included).
Eames herself has had mentors that have failed, such as Maureen Pergolis. Well spotted, doppelgaenger. In "Albatross," the albatross was Pagolis' husband. What is the albatross here? Is it the "greatest triumph"? Of a plagiarized book? Or is Goren Eames' "albatross" (which would be lame)? Or--what did the rest of you take it as?
Again on the violence--Goren has ALWAYS chewed out people whose acts upset him (she was weak, and you used her, and that really pisses me off ... he was your brother, you should have helped him). He used to use his words. What may be bothering us is that he's so physical now and in a different way: it might seem like an inconsistency of character.
But I thought there was enough there to engage me. I do wish that the writing were better. I miss that.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Nov 16, 2007 17:34:19 GMT -5
I don't appreciate the way some of you have responded to my posts. I'm always gracious in not making my posts personal or referring to a specific statement in any else's posts.
I've been a fan and poster on another board since the show has begun, and I think most of you are way to hard on the show. If you don't like it any more, then don't watch it. It's NOT going to be what it used to be, so stop watching it. If you want the show to continue, then you need to be more accepting that it does need to be geared for a new audience.
I agree, the writers are a bit over the top, but I also think as much as I love Peter Coyote, that he chose to play it a bit over the top. Many of you say you liked it better when we needed to understand the Why, not the Who. I found that in this episode.
Schill had been working on TJ since before even his first novel came out. Who do you think gave TJ the idea to write a story about Keira's boyfriend? Schill. He was playing off TJ knowing that he was a liar and a thief just like Schill himself.
By the time it came for Schill to want Keira dead, he had TJ so wound up, that giving him cocaine, which amps up all you're feelings, just put TJ over the top. Let's be honest everyone, there have been shows throughout all seasons where we've needed to suspend disbelief.
One of my favorite episodes from season one is Seizure. Why would it be any more believable that the doctor would kill to get her psychopathic boyfriend out of jail? Just because she had the predisposition based upon the lesion, didn't mean she had to act on it. It's a TV show.
Yes, I VERY much miss the Goren of the first few years especially, but the show isn't going to ever be that way again. Vincent and Katherine along with the writers don't want it to be. I still stand by my posts and though it had it's faults, I did find the show layered and with a message. Also, I enjoyed the interaction between between Goren and Eames and the players in the episode.
In the past few years, D'Onofrio always says before a new season that Goren's going to lose it, or become stranger, etc. So far he hasn't wound up tied up in a straight jacket. Let's be real, the show jumped the shark when Goren found out he might be the son of a serial killer. However, I still enjoy the interaction between Goren and Eames, Vincent and Katherine, and some of the writing and other performers to make it worth my time.
I thought this board appreciated and wanted to read other view points and maybe actually take them into consideration, and not just dismiss them so casually. I'll leave you all to it.
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Post by nwchimom on Nov 16, 2007 17:48:06 GMT -5
I haven't seen anyone respond badly to your posts, gorensdoppelganger. Sorry you feel picked on or put out.
We might be hard on certain aspects of the show, but we are free to discuss our thoughts just as you are free to discuss yours. It shouldn't be a "love it or leave it" situation.
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 16, 2007 17:56:48 GMT -5
I'm sorry if I personally wrote anything that upset you. As usual, your two posts on the episode were insightful & thought provoking. I don't think anyone here meant to be hurtful or critical. Opinions will differ, that's what makes it interesting (so I thought).
I guess I did show some WTF about Goren's anger at Schill, but I actually gave the episode an A in the poll. Angry or happy, fat or thin, old school or new school..I love CI and I love Goren.
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Post by outerbankschick on Nov 16, 2007 18:21:10 GMT -5
Okay, the eternal cock-eyed optimist weighs in. I liked the episode and I didn't mind the man-handling thing. It's not like Goren has never gotten physical with anyone before and Schill was a pompous windbag who tried to dismiss him out of hand by telling him he was just being "hyperbolic". That earned him a hissing-clenched-jaw "I'm not done" from Goren that told me he was trying to keep the anger in check for the moment. Schill just dismisses him and starts to pick up the drink. He doesn't care that he's cheated Keira out of her novel and her life. Reminded me a bit of Pravda, from S3, with Carl as the plagarist. Though Schill was pompous and overblown while Carl was just arrogant and belligerant about his fraud. I really liked the scene where Bobby went to talk to D-Tour. When he told him that Keira had loved him, that she'd written about the song he used to sing, and she loved the way he sang it. It seemed Bobby was trying to understand the people involved and that talk with D-Tour came from the heart. And the scene in the gym was fantastic! Especially that little move where Bobby apologized for the "flies" and seemed to flick one off TJ's nose. When he gave Alex his badge and she reacted with that "Bobby. . .", her look of frustration was half-put-on, half-"uh oh". . .so I didn't know until after the scene whether or not she knew he was just playing TJ. Overall, I liked it and I liked the story. I liked the fact that Bobby was so upset about Keria's work being stolen by a shill like Schill. (I don't think the character's name was a coincidence). Also, loved the part where Eames told Ross she'd been reading a message board about bad bosses. And he says, "You just happened to be reading there. . ." That was great and the look on his face said it all.
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Post by deathroe on Nov 16, 2007 18:38:11 GMT -5
Doppelgaenger, I am sorry if anything I said upset you. I think your posts are among the most insightful.
outerbankschick--I thought the whole D-tour subplot was wonderful. When it started up I was like "oh, SVU again"--but for some reason, it was a really neat idea.
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vdofan1
Silver Shield Investigator
Made ya look....
Posts: 178
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Post by vdofan1 on Nov 16, 2007 18:40:26 GMT -5
And I almost forgot, but Goren made a not so subtle reference to a ballistics "friend." There were a million less clumsy ways to have incorporated the gun information into the script, which has me thinking it to be a deliberate to hint at the dark haired ballistics cutie with whom there was definate chemsity in Albatross and whatever other ep she was in (they are, sadly, getting difficult to distinguish and quite forgettable). Why assume it's the same ballistics expert? If she worked the "Albatross" case wouldn't she have been with NYPD? As far as I remember she hasn't been in any other episodes. To make the leap that she's transferred to New Jersey and left the NYPD seems a bit much. A little OT, but something I see in most episode threads in the last year or two. I get the feeling that many of us are still so focused on the ongoing changes that we're looking for reasons that aren't really there, or not the big drama we are making them out to be, to not like the show. I know it's something I'm trying to keep in mind when I watch the show and also when I post in the episode threads (which might explain why I don't post in the episode threads very much.)
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Post by outerbankschick on Nov 16, 2007 18:43:16 GMT -5
I really liked D-Tour as a character. He seemed apologetic, and not, all at the same time. Like he wanted to better himself but didn't know how. And Keira, though she had found a better life, still loved the good (and even the bad) of the world she grew up in. She never lost sight of her roots, which is something I admire about people in general. It's a wonderful thing to make something of yourself and have a better life than what you started with, but we should never, ever forget where we came from.
Which was part of Schill's problem. He forgot the fact that he was once a "nobody", too.
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 16, 2007 18:46:45 GMT -5
Oh, I liked how Eames knew that Kyra had a man in her life:
Eames: "She might not be single. "Scarface" DVD, men's hoody.
LOL! No woman would own that DVD on her own volition. A piece of trash. Up there with :ugh: "Studio 54."
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vdofan1
Silver Shield Investigator
Made ya look....
Posts: 178
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Post by vdofan1 on Nov 16, 2007 18:46:57 GMT -5
I like the episode. I don't think it's going to make my top ten. But I liked it. My problem with it had less to do with the actual story or character issues, but rather the un-spoiler spoiler regarding Fisher Stevens. (I need to learn to read more carefully, or not at all. I spent most of the hour trying to figure out how he was going to be the killer, and I just couldn't "connect the dots".)
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Nov 16, 2007 19:02:05 GMT -5
Sorry, all it's been one of those weeks. I don't mind views that differ as long as it's backed up with details, that's what makes a forum fun, interesting, and intriguing. I felt like my words were being thrown back at me without offering any substantive information/thoughts to offer a counter argument (for lack of a better word). Thanks, for allowing me to vent and to be a bit over the top in my reply. Guess a bit of Schill rubbed off on me. As Eames would say, "It's time for a Margareta."
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 16, 2007 19:35:08 GMT -5
gorensdoppleganger, You mentioned you couldn't sleep last night. Hope things are better today. I know that when I don't get a good night's sleep, I'm more sensitive to things in general. I agree with you that the network & writers are trying to appease the new viewers. Yet they seem to also care about giving us (the long term fans) what we've been asking for. What a tightrope walk that is, you can't make both groups totally happy. There's also a problem with the new continuation of character approach, each episode can't be totally independent of itself anymore. When the episodes are played out of sequence, it shows. That was never an issue before. No wonder it looks like all we do is complain.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Nov 16, 2007 21:33:41 GMT -5
I'm still conflicted over this episode. I hated that it was such an in your face direction with the whole Declan Gage/Schill--mentor/protege thing. I kept thinking, writers, remember who your's audience. We know the characters--sometimes better than you do. You don't have to shove it down our throats. We get it. I liked that Goren wasn't so down and depressed. There are times when anger can be better than grief. He was more on his game and more like the Bobby of old. I can't say it enough. I really like Ross this year. I loved his "and you just happened to be reading there?" quip. I also missed Rodgers for the second week in a row. I have to admit I keep waiting for the donuts. Ha Ha! nosee
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