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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 26, 2007 8:11:26 GMT -5
We see here with Schill that Goren has a tremendous amount of repressed anger. Anger that is bubbling under the surface. Anger that he's been able to contain for years. In "Suite Sorrow" Bobby admits that he knows the kind of anger that could kill. Lately (since last season) Goren ability to contain his demons is eroding.
The Goren "hot buttons" - his father, now his mentor - were pushed by the character of Schill. A man who manipulated & used those who trusted him (Gage) & was a weak, ineffectual alcoholic (Dad). Maybe Mom is in there too - she deceived Bobby about who his real father might be. Even though he loved her, he might be feeling some of that rage that goes hand in hand with grief.
Goren's nephew - if Frank knew all these years that he had a son & never told his brother, that could really drive Goren over the edge. Especially since Bobby could have helped the boy all these years to develop & have a good life, not wind up in prison.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 27, 2007 23:10:34 GMT -5
Ah, thanks for the most recent postings explaining about galleys and other publishing details. This part of the story thoroughly confused me but now makes more sense with the added info. However, I'm still in agreement with Mimi about how some details, especially the Yemen angle, got rushed over too quickly which added to my confusion.
And I'm still upset with Goren with how he got physical with Shill before he (Goren) knew exactly how Shill was involved in Kira's murder. But if Goren was already going over the edge, the photos from "Untethered" take on an even deeper level of disturbance for me.
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Post by maherjunkie on Nov 28, 2007 18:37:36 GMT -5
Goren's nephew - if Frank knew all these years that he had a son & never told his brother, that could really drive Goren over the edge. Especially since Bobby could have helped the boy all these years to develop & have a good life, not wind up in prison. You mean mental hospital?
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 28, 2007 19:28:32 GMT -5
Goren's nephew - if Frank knew all these years that he had a son & never told his brother, that could really drive Goren over the edge. Especially since Bobby could have helped the boy all these years to develop & have a good life, not wind up in prison. You mean mental hospital? We're not sure if the nephew is in the mental ward of the prison. All we know for sure is that he is in prison & witnessed a murder in the mental ward there.
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Post by Summerfield on Nov 28, 2007 21:10:48 GMT -5
Really, all we know is someone who is in prison has connections with Goren. After that, who knows for sure?
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Post by Patcat on Nov 29, 2007 9:42:20 GMT -5
I know there's been complaints that LOCI has been "dumbed down" in the last couple of seasons, and there's been several episodes--especially the ones "ripped from the headlines"--where I have to agree. I also have to admit that LOCI has gone to a more simplistic storyline even in some of its better stories. But it's still one of the more intelligent and subtle shows on television. Now, of course, this may say more about the sorry state of TV than of the health of LOCI, but in the past week I've actually watched a few other crime procedurals, and I was baffled that so many of these shows are reviewed better and gain more viewers than LOCI. (I'm sorry if that sounds snobbish--I don't mean it to.)
This episode, for example--Multiple characters with multiple, subtle, and realistic motivations (I know some people disagree with me on this, but there are many real life examples of people in the literary world exhibiting these kinds of behaviors and motivations) and displaying the resulting behavior. And a script that assumes its audience knows something about books and may actually read them.
As I wrote, LOCI's relative intelligence in comparison to the CSIs and other shows may just point to the dumbing down of TV. But I also think the show deserves some defense.
As for Goren's ballistics "friend"--I didn't see any connection between him and the ballistics expert.
Patcat
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Post by nwchimom on Nov 29, 2007 10:10:24 GMT -5
Pat, I agree with you here:
"This episode, for example--Multiple characters with multiple, subtle, and realistic motivations (I know some people disagree with me on this, but there are many real life examples of people in the literary world exhibiting these kinds of behaviors and motivations) and displaying the resulting behavior. And a script that assumes its audience knows something about books and may actually read them."
I thought this was one of the better CI episodes compared to those of season 6. My complaint was about being hit over the head with Declan Gage several times. (BTW, the argument that the show is playing catch up for new viewers doesn't have much merit because CI has played on that network every day for the last few years. Programs get new viewers all the time...we can't stop for remedial lessons during every episode.)
I want the connection between Schill and Declan to be more subtle. I don't want CI to become like SVU when they sit around the squad room giving exposition like they're reading from a Wikipedia entry.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Nov 29, 2007 10:13:39 GMT -5
Patcat I agree with you on the dumbing down of the LOCI. I just didn't like the ripped from the headline shows much from the last several seasons. That is why I wonder about this weeks epi with Logan. It is the college rape case, evil prosecutor, sex crazed college kids... I know it is a compelling story but too soon.
Goren understood Shill, that is why he was so very angry with him. Ok, so it is probably a bit of transference but it allows him to really know what motivated him. It helped put the pieces together or they would have just gone after the other writer for Kira's murder. Goren knew how to push his buttons and make him shrivel like the little worm he truly was. He motivated and planned Kira's murder. It was passion and jealousy for the killer but envy for Shrill. I think he knew she was probably going to be better than he was at his best. He had to steal her work, her talent and her life.
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Post by DonnaJo on Nov 29, 2007 12:19:32 GMT -5
Goren's instant dislike for Schill still sits badly with me. I don't see the obvious connection between him & Declan Gage. It was a stretch.
What I also find disturbing is Goren's patience with the sleazy agent. The man was a proven repeated rapist. Talk about abuse of power & trust, this guy was worst than Schill. Yet all Goren did was roll his eyes a little. When that poor woman told them he overpowered her, raped her, forced her to be bought off & ruined her budding career, I didn't see any real concern from Goren, who is usually outraged by such things.
Anyone out there agree?
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Post by Patcat on Nov 29, 2007 12:19:52 GMT -5
Schill actually manages to destroy two talented writers--Kira and TJ. TJ was a fraud, but he was apparently a very talented fraud.
Patcat
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 29, 2007 13:30:42 GMT -5
Watched "Self-Made" again last night, and noted especially the abundance of shots of Shill drinking, pouring drinks, and handing drinks to others. When Goren grabs him, he's reaching for a drink. Not that I condone the violence, but it's an interesting choice to grab a guy who is numbing himself with alcohol and use physical pain to get his attention.
Also a good point DonnaJo about Goren's different reactions to Shill and to Sage. Food for thought!
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Post by Patcat on Nov 29, 2007 14:42:05 GMT -5
That's a good and inciteful point about Goren's reaction--or lack of one--to Sage. Perhaps it's because Sage isn't a hypocrite like Schill. Come to think of it, though, Eames doesn't react much to Sage either.
Patcat
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 29, 2007 21:31:29 GMT -5
Patcat,
I agree to a certain point. For me CI is still a notch above other crime shows, yet multiple layers shouldn't come to the detriment of understanding the story. I don't like to be spoonfed elements of a story but I want the more complex part of a story to be well established and well explained.
In this episode, for example, the galley as well as the Yemen angle were not explained enough for a neophyte to understand it.
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on Nov 29, 2007 21:40:05 GMT -5
You know, I was wondering whether Goren's reaction to Schill may have been based, in part, on Schill's resemblance to the "father" Goren grew up with. From what I recall, Goren's father was basically a facade of a human being--a "bon vivant," as Nicole described him--a person who was all show and perhaps little substance, who liked to have a good time, never took responsibility for anything and probably sucked all of the oxygen out of the room--much like Schill.
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Post by outerbankschick on Nov 30, 2007 22:26:43 GMT -5
Misty98, I was wondering the same thing. For me, his intense and immediate dislike for Schill was less about Declan and more about his father. Though one can also make the argument that Declan was pretty much an "absent" father to Jo, and we all know how Bobby feels about dads that ignore their kids. But I really felt that something about Schill reminded Bobby of his father and that was what set him against the man, straight out of the gate.
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