|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 19, 2007 22:58:57 GMT -5
Nice post, lovesong Interesting take on Donny's culpability in what might have happened to his Uncle Bobby. I think most of us were so busy feeling sorry for Donny & disliking Frank, that we gave Donny a pass on really doing something constructive to help Goren out of "heaven." I wonder if Donny really knew how unreliable his Dad was? It sounds like he's only lately met his father. By calling Frank & telling him what was going on with Bobby, Frank could have told him that he would take care of it, and Donny probably believed him. I'd love to know what Donny's Mom had to say about Frank to his son all of these years?
|
|
|
Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 20, 2007 8:59:38 GMT -5
Nice post, lovesong Interesting take on Donny's culpability in what might have happened to his Uncle Bobby. I think most of us were so busy feeling sorry for Donny & disliking Frank, that we gave Donny a pass on really doing something constructive to help Goren out of "heaven." I wonder if Donny really knew how unreliable his Dad was? It sounds like he's only lately met his father. By calling Frank & telling him what was going on with Bobby, Frank could have told him that he would take care of it, and Donny probably believed him. I'd love to know what Donny's Mom had to say about Frank to his son all of these years? Frank made one remark re being in Donny's life and it was something about Donny's mother would let him see Donny when Frank was clean. So it sounded like mom knew Frank was a druggie and wanted to keep that element away from her son. It also sounded like she wanted her son to know his father and perhaps have some kind of relationship with him. This is another example of Frank's addictions screwing up his life. In defense of Donny.....I can understand him calling Frank and not the police. Frank is Bobby's brother and Frank did go to him for help for Donny. Donny knew this. He might have mistakenly thought that the help bit between Frank and Bobby was reciprocal. We know Frank is a one way street. Donny probably didn't. Also, Donny probably now has a major distrust of the police/legal system considering how he got the shaft on the drug bust and the "education" on the penal system he aquired while in jail. Also that once he was moved out of Tates, it wasn't long before he was sent back to the place that he felt was a certain death sentence, only more so now because the Tates staff is aware. And remember.....he's 19. Perhaps in his eyes he did the best thing, not necessarily the right thing. He escaped what he thought was certain death, and he alerted his father to Bobby's predicament.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 20, 2007 9:42:54 GMT -5
Yea, a good, thoughtful post.
I agree that we can't expect too much from Donny. I've the distinct impression he just found out he has an uncle, one that's part of a system that hasn't treated him very well. Donny is unlikely to have much faith in Bobby.
The point about police work not being respected is unfortunately true. It's also true of the military, which is equally unfortunate. The men and women who defend and save us do not get the respect, let alone the pay, that they deserve, and some studies have indicated this lack of respect is frequently a major reason why police turn to corruption. It's ironic that there are all of these tv programs and movies with cops as heroes, and yet in real life our society doesn't value these people.
I think my biggest problem with UNTETHERED is that so much logic and backstory had to be sacrificed to get Goren in peril. There's the question of how he wound up in Tate, for example. How could Goren be sure he'd be sent to that particular facility? True, he attacked the judge's car dealership, but how could he be sure that judge would send him to that facility? I'm also still not certain how Goren maintained communication with Eames when he was at Tate. I also suspect more steps would've been taken to protect Donny. And why didn't someone go to the press? Early in the series we learn that Goren knows at least one reporter on the LEDGER. Letting it be known that something was going on at Tate would offer Donny some protection. (Perhaps this was the sort of thing Ross expected Goren to do when he put him on leave.)
I admired what I saw in this episode, but there were just too many holes in the plot. I can't help thinking Goren could've been placed in a similar situation--say, an actual undercover operation because he is the detective who knows something about mental illness--without so many untied strings.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 20, 2007 9:55:29 GMT -5
What could have also added fuel to Donny's mistrust of the legal system and the inability to keep him from harm's way at Tates, was seeing Bobby being wheeled into "heaven" and when finally removed taken back in short order. His one savior was now in the same dire straits as he was. He might have thought that the only chance for both of them was for him to escape and alert someone. Too bad that someone was Frank. Maybe Donny didn't understand the absence of conscience or character that is Frank. Frank's remark about "tough love" when it came to Donny was merely a way of him escusing his lack of interest in the boy or his unwillingness to put any effort into him. That effort should be saved for himself....at least in Frank's world.
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 20, 2007 10:34:33 GMT -5
Sadly, I do agree with you daib, about what you said about Frank. "Tough love"...yeah, right. I was in Frank's corner, so to speak, until this episode. I thought he had the potential to stay clean & be family for Bobby. Now I don't. Patcat, all the holes in this episode could have been filled with the simple inclusion of Carver (which we thought was scheduled to happen). A DA on the inside working with Goren would have made sense of everything. One scene with Carver making a phone call to a crony upstate, or discussing with Goren that he could count on his help, would have been perfect.
|
|
|
Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 20, 2007 11:56:59 GMT -5
Sadly, I do agree with you daib, about what you said about Frank. "Tough love"...yeah, right. I was in Frank's corner, so to speak, until this episode. I thought he had the potential to stay clean & be family for Bobby. Now I don't. Patcat, all the holes in this episode could have been filled with the simple inclusion of Carver (which we thought was scheduled to happen). A DA on the inside working with Goren would have made sense of everything. One scene with Carver making a phone call to a crony upstate, or discussing with Goren that he could count on his help, would have been perfect. Frank has the potential to be an upstanding individual. Stand up against his addictions and he could have a real life. He chooses to wallow in the existance called addiction. It was choppy because the writers didn't expand on the how, or they did and it wound up on the cutting room floor. Because of time constraints of an hour show, there were sacrifices made that hurt the storyline....and left many fans disappointed on some level. It could have been a great episode. Now it is just a good episode. I think the acting really saved the episode.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 20, 2007 12:27:10 GMT -5
Good points, diablo, very good points. I find this episode to be frustrating because I think it might have been time constraints that led to the holes in the story line.
In case any one cares (g), here's how I would've played this story line. Goren learns of the corruption and worse at Tate via Donny. The various channels are informed of the abuse at Tate (Goren may even contact his friend at the LEDGER). As a potential witness, Donny is pulled from Tate and sent to another facility. Goren, in the idenity of a transferred prisoner, is sent undercover to Tate. All of this would still leave us with the Goren in peril, Eames as his savior, and the Goren brothers' conflicts.
There are holes in this, obviously, as well.
And I agree that the acting really saved this episode.
This episode has made me appreciate much more Techguy's arguments against THE WAR AT HOME. His point that that story became more about Goren and his family's sufferings to the detriment of the story as a whole seems to me to be an echo of what I feel may be wrong about UNTETHERED. It's all about putting Goren in peril and Goren suffering, and while in a weird and wonderful I enjoy watching Mr. D'Onofrio act Goren in peril and suffering, this episode didn't set it up well.
And I don't want to be too negative about this episode. What I liked about it, I really liked. And it's hard to write these shows, and I appreciate what the writers of LOCI do.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Dec 20, 2007 12:57:32 GMT -5
The point about police work not being respected is unfortunately true. It's also true of the military, which is equally unfortunate. The men and women who defend and save us do not get the respect, let alone the pay, that they deserve... Add to the lack of respect the lack of attention and treatment for PTSD, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the suicide rate among US military personnel is more than twice that in the general population.I think my biggest problem with UNTETHERED is that so much logic and backstory had to be sacrificed to get Goren in peril. There's the question of how he wound up in Tate, for example. How could Goren be sure he'd be sent to that particular facility? I admired what I saw in this episode, but there were just too many holes in the plot. This summarizes my biggest problem with "Untethered"--I wasn't able to overcome the gigantic leaps in illogic of the plot, especially the contrived manner in which Donny was introduced and how Goren ended up at Tate. I'm still very confused about why Donny called his deadbeat father Frank for help, what Donny realistically expected from Frank, how much Donny knew about his uncle Robert, etc. Yes the acting was great but that's all it was...acting, which ultimately became distracting, overpowering, and then lost in the quagmire of illogical plot holes. And so, unlike Patcat and diablodeblanco, I feel "Untethered" is not even a good episode; the acting didn't save it for me, it was more a distraction than salvation.This episode has made me appreciate much more Techguy's arguments against THE WAR AT HOME. His point that that story became more about Goren and his family's sufferings to the detriment of the story as a whole seems to me to be an echo of what I feel may be wrong about UNTETHERED. It's all about putting Goren in peril and Goren suffering, and while in a weird and wonderful I enjoy watching Mr. D'Onofrio act Goren in peril and suffering, this episode didn't set it up well. "Untethered" is TWAH Lite, not nearly as offensive but just as guilty of overplaying the suffering woeful Goren--and overacting Vincent D'Onofrio. I know many here enjoy displays of Mr. D's acting, but I need more, as in a logical well thought out CI crime story, to satisfy me. When the story is sacrificed to indulge Mr. D's desire to have more meat to chew on, that's when the acting calls attention to itself, overwhelms everything else, and crosses the line over into scenery chewing territory.
|
|
|
Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 20, 2007 13:39:02 GMT -5
Techguy--
The show has moved away from the original successful format. I loved the old CI. I know things move on and change but the change hasn't been a step uo merely a step in a different direction.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 20, 2007 15:55:29 GMT -5
I don't blame Mr. D'Onofrio for the changes the show has taken. I'm not sure I even blame Warren Leight--some of these things were starting under Rene Balcer's watch. I blame SVU (g). SVU got great ratings by emphasizing the personal lives of the characters, and I don't think that LOCI is nearly as bad as SVU in this respect.
I don't want to be too negative here, because I still love LOCI. And I do want to know more about Goren and Eames and hope they come out through all of this. But I do think things are getting a little heavy handed.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 20, 2007 17:55:45 GMT -5
I don't blame Mr. D'Onofrio for the changes the show has taken. I'm not sure I even blame Warren Leight--some of these things were starting under Rene Balcer's watch. I blame SVU (g). SVU got great ratings by emphasizing the personal lives of the characters, and I don't think that LOCI is nearly as bad as SVU in this respect. I don't want to be too negative here, because I still love LOCI. And I do want to know more about Goren and Eames and hope they come out through all of this. But I do think things are getting a little heavy handed. Patcat It comes down to ratings. It doesn't matter how hokey the storyline is, as long as it pulls in big numbers. Sad....
|
|
|
Post by chyochyo on Dec 22, 2007 10:44:28 GMT -5
One thing that I enjoyed about this episode: Goren's manner towards his nephew versus his actions to help him. Goren is not familiar with his nephew, he goes out of his way to say "I don't know you," he holds him accountable for his actions, he does not offer to comfort him, he behaves in a way that lets his nephew know that Goren is alligned with the system and will not be manipulated. In front of Eames and the captain, however, Goren behaves in a way that lets us know that he absolutely cares for his nephew and takes his well-being to heart as a matter personal to him. I also liked the contrast, Goren repeatedly explaining to his nephew how not to behave if he wants to be considered sane (something like, "You're talking too fast, it makes you sound paraniod") and then laterpretending to be disturbed himself.
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 22, 2007 11:15:40 GMT -5
Good point chyochyo, I noticed that as well.
Also, when Donny used a prison slang term, and Goren told him not to, that it made him look like he's been in the system a long time. That was good advice. Advice that Goren would have also given to the kid from "Cruise To Nowhere." I believe someone already pointed out that Bobby treated that kid in the same manner, professional but paternal.
The huge difference, as you've stated chyo, is that this is family. This is Frances Goren's grandson. I can't help but feel that a part of Bobby's determination to help Donny was that he though his mother would want him to.
That's common when someone loses a loved one. Many of their actions following the person's death are either in remembrance of the deceased, like donating money or possessions in their name, or a personal cause that they believe the deceased would have done themselves if possible, or would have wanted them to do. "Saving" Donny could be that cause for Bobby.
|
|
Penn O'Hara
Silver Shield Investigator
LOCI Cowboys
Posts: 147
|
Post by Penn O'Hara on Jan 5, 2008 6:07:37 GMT -5
I found it a sad plot device that a nephew of Goren's was introduced out of the blue in the episode in the first place, and not nearly well enough explained by Frank's toss off explanation to satisfy any discerning viewer, let alone loyal fan. It would have been far more credible if it were the son of a good friend of Goren's. What's with this family thread unravelling, willy nilly??? Sure, Mum was viable and acceptable...even a brother in the picture...but now a sudden nephew? I wasn't convinced.
But then we wouldn't have had the titillation of seeing him throw his career away when no one would listen to him or see things his way, or, in fact, *give* him his way. Hmmmm. What has happened to our man? I'm not liking where this is going. Not one little bit.
|
|
meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
|
Post by meggyd on Jan 5, 2008 6:45:46 GMT -5
I agree Penn, where this is going is very worrying indeed. I'm willing to stretch credibility a lot for Bobby Goren, but there's only so much I can deal with.
Because I'm in Australia, I read the plot outlines and discussion well before I see the episodes. And just reading the plot outlines, you realise how much the quality of the acting saves the show, because the bare bones outlines for the Goren/Eames episodes are starting to read as just plain ludicrous, almost farcical. Not at all the type of content you expect from a show that expects the crime element of the program to be taken seriously. I mean, without the context, the idea of a detective finding out about his long lost nephew, finding out he's in prison, finding out his life is in danger, magically going undercover by being sent to the same prison psychiatric facility (because we all know there's only ONE in the whole of New York City) and then having to be saved by his fellow officiers only to have his career jeopardised sounds like something from an entirely different genre, let alone different show to Law and Order. Even the super soapy SVU has only come up with one or two storylines that sounded this bizarre (yes, I am talking about Olivia's brother. What the???). The fact that VDO, Erbe and Bogosian all give such gravitas to their performances means that the extremes of the plot are often hidden and given greater meaning, but the underlying premise of these episodes is heading right out there - I hope they have a plan about how they are going to get things a bit more back on track again because they've gone about as far out as they can go.
I caught the clip of the confrontation between Frank and Bobby on YouTube. Frank's self serving view of the world just comes through more and more clearly, how he manipulates things so he is always being wronged by someone else and he bears no responsibility for anything. Bobby really hit a nerve by pointing out Donny was smart, I think he was really surprised at the strength of Frank's hurt reaction to that, that Frank took it as a criticism of himself. Having recently rewatched Acts of Contrition, I was also reminded of Bobby's comment about the guy who claimed to be the survivor of a severe beating not flinching when Bobby physically crowded him. Frank's defensive behaviour and cowering in the doorway when Bobby crowded him is the reaction of someone who really expects a physical beating - perhaps again reinforcing the idea that they suffered physical abuse as children?
I thought Erbe's character in the scenes that I've been able to view has been really great in this episode. Her measured reaction to Frank and her dealings with Ross were a real return to the "old" Eames, balanced, strong and supportive of her partner.
Can't wait to view the whole thing (though I've seen over half in the various clips that are out there - what did we do before the net???)
|
|