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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 11:57:33 GMT -5
True, DonnaJo. We know for sure Donny called Frank after his escape, and I can't imagine him not telling Frank that Bobby was there. I think Donny escaped because he thought Bobby was totally medicated and wouldn't be able to help Donny. He saw them remove Bobby from "heaven" and bring him back the next day. He probably was afraid Bobby would die there like the first boy did.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 7, 2007 12:46:34 GMT -5
I must have missed Donny's phone call--I don't recall it at all.
So, my apologies.
Patcat
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 13:29:49 GMT -5
"Eames, where was your judgment?" was right on.
Yet as someone who always pooh-poohed the notion of Goren's "dragging down" Eames: now that it's happened, I don't mind as much as I thought I would. Not that I ship, or anything *coughcough*, but I liked this particular way of bringing them back together.
Also really enjoyed Eames' defense of Goren to Ross ("all he was thinking about was his nephew," or paraphrase.) After all this time, a little sweetness was in order.
deathroe (who is counting the minutes until she can get done with this last day of classes, curl up in her apartment, and do a little more watching)
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 13:37:37 GMT -5
more, sorry LOCI: The ring in that scene was Goren's mom's. She gave it to Frank, and then Frank gave it to Bobby as a pledge of good faith when Bobby said he'd help him with his son. It was an engagement ring, but we don't have any indication that Bobby's going to use it on anyone *g* I think girlinblack was pointing out that Eames' rather hard-sounding comment at the end of "Smile"--that it was "too late" for her to dissociate from Goren--was somewhat resolved by her demonstration of loyalty in this episode.
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Post by Techguy on Dec 7, 2007 13:48:46 GMT -5
While I applaud "Untethered" for its good intentions and the actors for their performances, the story stretched credibility beyond my ability to accept it. When "Chief Wank" is the most focused, articulate, and credible character I'm left scratching my head as to what the heck happened.
I have a big problem accepting Eames' decisions. I don't see her as supporting her partner, I see her enabling Detective Goren's erratic unstable behavior. I also couldn't figure out if Ross was being helpful or confrontational or what. And rather than making sense out of Eames' comment at the end of "Smile," "Untethered" is very unsettling to me. The more G/E episodes I see, the more confused I get as to where they stand with each other.
I found the entire brick scenario disruptive, and cringed when Detective Goren tossed it through the car dealership window. Was this only an act on his part to get arrested or was he already going over the edge mentally? As the episode continued I found myself focusing too much on the acting to the detriment of my comprehension of what was going on in the story.
The existence of a nephew, how Detective Goren got into the prison hospital, the scheme he and Eames devised to stay in touch, and his rescue are all preposterous plot elements for me. When Eames and Ross go off to rescue Goren, Ross asks how many in MCS were involved and Eames replies "Besides you and me?" What's up with the MCS squad getting involved as co-conspirators in this elaborate and risky scenario? The dangerous and unprofessional behavior across the board by the supposedly elite MCS should have riled up the Chief of Detectives even more than he was already.
We get no resolution or practical suggestion about what's going to happen to the sadistic warden and her equally sadistic police cohorts at the prison. We are left with the lonely image of Detective Goren in Times Square, wondering about his fragile mental state and...then what? There were just too many holes, too many unresolved issues, too many unbelievable plot points, too much crammed into too little time here. Kudos for the acting and good intentions, but this was ultimately an incomplete and unsatisfying episode.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 14:25:09 GMT -5
more, sorry LOCI: The ring in that scene was Goren's mom's. She gave it to Frank, and then Frank gave it to Bobby as a pledge of good faith when Bobby said he'd help him with his son. It was an engagement ring, but we don't have any indication that Bobby's going to use it on anyone *g* I think girlinblack was pointing out that Eames' rather hard-sounding comment at the end of "Smile"--that it was "too late" for her to dissociate from Goren--was somewhat resolved by her demonstration of loyalty in this episode. Maybe I didn't hear the entire conversation between the two brothers but I thought that Frank pinched the ring. That Frances didn't give it to him. That was what had Bobby so angry about Frank having it. Then in the restaurant scene Frank returns the ring to Bobby as if righting a wrong that he had committed. If I misinterpreted this, my apologies.
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Post by ragincajun on Dec 7, 2007 14:53:11 GMT -5
ok third time trying Spell check is killing me. so excuse spelling errors.
1. The brick guy, I think Goren was thinking like a cop, trying to get the brick from the man the quickest way possible, I don't think he was just homeless I think he was also mentally ill. 2. Bobby and Frank in front of One PP, Frank was really pulling the heartstrings, telling Bobby that Donny looked like him. I think the reason Frank didn't tell Mom about Donny, is that since he couldn't produce the Grandson for a visit, she would know he was a deadbeat dad and think less of him, Frank thinking only of Frank. Also loved the comment that she gave him $20 every time he visited, and Bobby's reply what was that $40.
3. In prison, I don't think he cracked, I think he got to the edge, I think he knew how to fake it, I got nervous when he got the truth serum and started telling the truth about himself. I think in Heaven he got to the edge. I like how they tied in stuff he learn and we learned in previous episodes, the linning up of the peas( Tomorrow) and counting Backwards ( sound Bodies). Also anyone notice Joshua, I thought he was the accounting guy, but guess he does computer stuff, he made up the history for Goren and License.
4. Chief of D' I think Goren could have just Saved NYC and he would find fault with Goren. But I know what he did isn't police procedure, but geez, if it was your nephew and he said people were being killed and he was unrightfully judged, what would you do. I know Eames who gave birth to her nephew had to understand. I hope one episode Goren goes on a date with a pretty girl and goes home to meet her father and its the Chief of D's
5. The last scene with Frank. Well Goren knows Frank is toxic, and now he is infecting his life, he even throws Eames in it. Frank uses people, he used Bobby, Eames and now he will use Donny, Goren knows this. Thats why he told Frank Told bobby to take Eames to a hotel, just use her for sex, more or less is what he is saying, get it out of your system. Sounds like a one time thing, just like dad use to do, ( I would think). Bobby reacts, cause he isn't that way, he respects women and Eames. He says Donny is smart, Frank throws it up that he is smart, but Frank isn't, just cause Mom always said it, Frank believes it's so. Bobby knows as long as Frank is like this, he can't be part of his life, They both had a rough childhood, it should have brought them close but it didn't. He has no choice but to cut him out of his life, he is toxic, he has to move on. But Bobby still has a nephew who is smart and he can't let Frank infect him, so he takes Franks phone, so Donny can't call him, so maybe Bobby will keep that phone connect and one day Donny will call, and Bobby will be able to get Donny the meds he needs and maybe get him back to his mom.
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 15:00:34 GMT -5
I could see that explanation of the ring, also--thanks, diablo. I don't begrudge Eames her lapse in judgment. I think that she loves Bobby (not necessarily romantically). I love the point about how she also has a nephew. I do think that this was a restoration of sorts in their relationship. However, I can only hope that something will happen to reinstate the two detectives professionally also.
Whoever made the point about Goren's unaccustomed inhumanity to Frank: yes, I can see that. But Frank was pushing him horribly in that scene. I don't think his cheap "motel" shot was just about using Eames for sex: I agree with whomever said he was getting Bobby "where it hurts." The coat comment was in the same vein. Think of how exquisitely the gift of the coat is presented in "Brother's Keeper": Bobby is clearly exemplifying charity in that scene. And Frank just spits on him, eliciting the sort of reaction that is commonly found, I think, in families, when nobody is listening in. I know at another point in my life I have said comparable things to family members and lived to regret it :/ :/ but I thought Bobby's anger itself was manly. Not the hands on throat. That was a little too Brady for me ...
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Post by Patcat on Dec 7, 2007 15:11:37 GMT -5
Techguy--I have to agree with on "incomplete and unsatisfying." As I wrote before, I suspect a great deal of this episode ended up on the editing floor.
I don't think that I find Eames' actions quite so incomprehensible. I think she was very upset by the torture and deaths of the prisoners. She's usually deeply upset when the system fails because people fail to do their jobs. I think that her desire to help the prisoners has as much to do with what she does as the fact Donny is Bobby's nephew and her loyalty to Bobby.
This episode did touch on a problem that many people chose to ignore--the presence of so many mentally ill individuals in the prison system. Look, there are a lot of evil people in this world, but there's also a lot of terribly ill people who should be getting help instead of shoved away in prison. I've wrote it before--if this country had a halfway decent mental health system, we'd have fewer people in jail and a lot more people living good, productive live.
Patcat
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Post by Cassie on Dec 7, 2007 15:28:56 GMT -5
. 1. The brick guy, I think Goren was thinking like a cop, trying to get the brick from the man the quickest way possible, I don't think he was just homeless I think he was also mentally ill. I have thought more about this. I still feel Det Robert Goren, was wrong in how he handled this situation. He should have used his cell phone, called for back up, and had the homeless man arrested because he was using the "brick" as a possible weapon. It would have been called a "302" and that is where the police/medical profession, have a person picked up, because they are threating to harm someone or themselves. They are then put into a psych hospital for evaluation, where they are feed and put back on meds, and maybe they can be helped more. The guy would have been given a bed for a couple of days if not a week It was a quick fix on Goren's part
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 7, 2007 15:52:07 GMT -5
I sent this message to a good friend as a PM and she thought I should share it:
To me the topic of the show was not madness, as it's really not a psychiatric hospital, but a jail. The way jail's handle mental illness differs from hospitals. Now within hospitals, there is also a difference. Years ago, there were more types of mental health hospitals, some were horrors, while others were like a spa. Then there were the ones in between that did the most good.
Now you're only in a hospital for 3 days. If you're not proven to be harmful to yourself or others, you're streeted. Now you'd think it was easy to tell that a mentally ill person needed help and could be harmful, but not so much here in the USA any more. Insurance companies and hospitals care more about the bottom line. That's why we've had the Virginia Tech massacre last year, and just yesterday 9 dead including the shooter at an Omaha mall.
The episode was more about how small towns abuse power because those in it are local townspeople who aren't lawyers, yet serve as part time judges, etc. It's also about more of the relationship between Bobby and Frank and Goren and his family. It also deals with the abuses that occur in the prison system.
I'd say that the episode was mostly about abuse of power and family dynamics (you see this in a particular scene that applies to the inmate who is originally killed and his family). The relationship between Goren and Eames, Ross, Goren and Eames, and Frank and Bobby, as these are all "families" in a way. The actual time that Goren is in the isolation ward on screen is about 10 minutes. It doesn't even occur until half way through the episode.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Dec 7, 2007 16:06:18 GMT -5
It strikes me that the episode was also about lessons other people think we need to learn.
on a lot of levels...
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 7, 2007 16:26:21 GMT -5
Effie, you comment is thought provoking, could you please elaborate?
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 16:54:39 GMT -5
Did anyone else notice how Eames just stood there unflinchingly and waited for Bobby to get back from talking to Ross? It was very affecting. (Last one for now, alas. It would appear that the sorrows of Bobby Goren were too much for my DVD player, so I'm waiting to see if it just overheated or what :/ )
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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 17:03:13 GMT -5
Effie, you comment is thought provoking, could you please elaborate? The first two that come to mind... The warden said she put the unruly prisoners in "heaven" because they needed to learn restraint (pun not intended on her part, I'm sure). Ross wanted Bobby to learn patience and how to work through channels instead of rushing into trouble.
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