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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 17:05:29 GMT -5
Techguy wrote: "I found the entire brick scenario disruptive, and cringed when Detective Goren tossed it through the car dealership window. Was this only an act on his part to get arrested or was he already going over the edge mentally?"Definitely a deliberate act, Techguy, used by Goren to get arrested by the local loser police department. Look who Goren specifically chose - the "Judge/Used Car Dealer" who sentenced Donny & who let the drunk, connected drug dealer with conections off with time served. Maybe it's me, but I didn't see Goren go over the edge mentally in that prison. At least, no more than anyone else would who was given truth serum & denied water & food for 18 hours & chained next to the boiler room. He did go off on that sadist/pedohile who was sexually abusing the young boys, because he was outraged in believing that his nephew was sexually abused by the guy. That was deep,honest anger, but then Goren used it afterwards to get himself placed in the mental ward. His "I'm gunnin' for ya" and laughing while they had him in the baton hold was an act, IMO
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Dec 7, 2007 17:05:34 GMT -5
Effie, you comment is thought provoking, could you please elaborate? Well, quickly... I saw a lot people trying to turn others to their way of thinking... the best example of which is the warden saying "those people need to be taught a lesson" (obedience) but it goes on. the Chief of D's thinks Goren needs to learn a lesson. (in self-awareness) "Have you ever asked yourself the question" Goren thinks Frank needs to learn a lesson (sobriety) "He's not in the program, he just talks program" Frank thinks Goren needs to learn a lesson (humility) "He was OK till you went stomping around" the guards think Jay Lowry needs to learn a lesson (manliness) the state (and Frank) to some extent think Donny needs to learn a lesson. (responsibility) "tough love" "I have no problem with himd doing the time" the untrusty trustee thinks "the big guy" needs to learn how things operate on the inside (obedience again, or subservience) "this is how things work..." Goren thinks Ross needs to learn a lesson (compassion) "How could you send him back there?" Eames thinks Ross needs to learn a lesson (leadership) "What did you think would happen..." It's a bit jumbled in my head as well... but people judging and controling others to their way of thinking... there are lessons to learn sure, but who is the teacher and who is the student?
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Post by outerbankschick on Dec 7, 2007 18:05:16 GMT -5
Quickly here, because I'm on my way out the door soon, there is so much I want to say but I need to watch again to get some of the finer points. But suffice to say, I loved it. I only have one complaint, which echoes many others, it was too short! Should definitely have been a two hour epi! The acting was supberb. All of them kept me riveted! Especially Vincent and Katie. Wow! And I loved that Rodgers and Ross were going out! A quick word about Eame's intense reaction in Ross's office. The parallel of her giving birth to her own nephew and Bobby's compassion and concern for his own nephew was not lost on me. There is also another contingency here. Lowry was tortured to death. Eame's was kidnapped and held hostage, and had to LISTEN as a young woman was tortured to death, while she waited for the killer to get to her. I think this fact had to be going through her mind when she realized how Lowry died. I'd like to see them explore this further, as well as Bobby's possible future relationship with Donny. Now I'm off to have a walk and then I've got to sit down and watch this one again!
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 18:14:40 GMT -5
Can anyone figure out exactly how long Bobby was denied food & water? I think it was 18 hours; that was the number he gave the Chief Of Detectives that he could attest to personally.
However, the "fey" inmate was denied water for 4 days according to the ME. Was the plan to keep Goren dehydrated that long? Did the Warden really want another death on her hands?
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 18:31:21 GMT -5
The only death we know of for sure is the feminine young man. I doubt that he was the only fatality at the prison because of the abuse and torture. Perhaps the warden and her henchmen had been able to keep things covered up until Donny spilled the beans to an uncle who just happened to be a cop.
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Post by nancyt on Dec 7, 2007 18:50:00 GMT -5
Wow, what a lot of great comments, and I'm going to try to play catchup and respond to a bunch of them . . . (Occasionally I think I should get a computer at home) . . .
Techguy, you're probably right about Goren's rule-breaking and the appropriate official reaction. I thought Ross was quite right to give up Donny when there was no other choice but to just flat defy or accuse another law-making authority. That said, probably my favorite moment of the episode was when Ross grasps that what has happened, has happened, no point lecturing about it now, drops everything and hits the road to Tates with Eames. My second reaction was "Oh, poor Rodgers!"; but my first was a heart flutter. Ross is a guy who knows what the rules are, but also how to take action in an emergency without reciting the penal code.
No, Bobby can't write off Frank permanently. He wants to, he probably thinks he has; but family is family unless you've got a heart of stone, and Goren's heart . . .
Frank probably was "the one." A friend of mine has a brother who in his early 20s developed schizophrenia and a corresponding drug problem. She remembers him as "the golden child," the one her parents assumed would be the successful, shining star of the family. You can easily see how Frank's looks and charm (he wouldn't have been making "motel" remarks back then) made him the parents' hope for something good to come out of the family, and his mother never got past that to see the reality of her son.
And I may be the only one, but I actually liked the ending! Yes, it's unresolved and sad to the extent that Goren didn't find his nephew; but there's hope in his looking, in his focus on something outside himself, hope for the salvation of the kid now that he has a good man in his life. Goren may be frustrated, but he has a goal now; we know how he goes after his goals; and goals are for hopeful people with a future, not broken-down half-mad wrecks.
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 18:59:20 GMT -5
DonnaJo, I think that you can watch the date stamps to figure it out! There were at least two date stamps on the security videos.
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Post by nonmanis on Dec 7, 2007 20:09:45 GMT -5
VDO is a great actor, I hope he will be up for an Emmy. The episodes in the jail were sometimes to horrific and had to turn away but VDO and Eames are such great actors, they deserve more recognition from the media. Can't wait to see how this story with nephew will end. Take care all of you, happy holidays and all the best wishes for the new year Nonmanis.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 7, 2007 20:31:33 GMT -5
Found on another site a link to an article about Timothy Souders, a mental patient whose sad death was likely the "Ripped" storyline used for this episode: 60 Minutes/Timothy Souders"You wouldn't imagine these days that a mental patient could be chained to a concrete slab by prison guards until he died of thirst, but that’s how Timothy Souders died and he is not alone."
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Post by goreamesfan on Dec 8, 2007 9:28:22 GMT -5
Wow, what a lot of great comments, and I'm going to try to play catchup and respond to a bunch of them . . . (Occasionally I think I should get a computer at home) . . . Frank probably was "the one." A friend of mine has a brother who in his early 20s developed schizophrenia and a corresponding drug problem. She remembers him as "the golden child," the one her parents assumed would be the successful, shining star of the family. You can easily see how Frank's looks and charm (he wouldn't have been making "motel" remarks back then) made him the parents' hope for something good to come out of the family, and his mother never got past that to see the reality of her son. Remember too that Frances Goren admitted she was never sure who Bobby's father was, and she knew the one candidate was a sadist (not sure if she knew he was also a murderer). It's likely she never pinned her hopes and dreams on her younger son for this very reason. One thing that struck me in this episode is how physical Goren has become. I think it's a sign of his weakening (or weakened) mental state. It's easier to use your fists than to use your head, particularly when you're Goren's size. He's been resorting to these tactics more and more lately. It's understandable to want to hit a rapist (though how many times did he hit the guy?) and to want to throw your deadbeat brother around the room, but a younger Goren would have used his head more, would have stayed more rational. In fact, I used to see Goren as someone who probably wouldn't be that good in a fight, despite his size, because he was so geeky (in a good way!). I've since changed my mind! I agree with those who find fault(s) with this episode, and I'm not sure it will wear well over time, but I enjoyed many, many moments. The image of Goren lying on the table, "shooting" the camera with his finer is burned into my brain.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 8, 2007 9:34:55 GMT -5
...and sad to the extent that Goren didn't find his nephew; but there's hope in his looking, in his focus on something outside himself, hope for the salvation of the kid now that he has a good man in his life. Goren may be frustrated, but he has a goal now; we know how he goes after his goals; and goals are for hopeful people with a future, not broken-down half-mad wrecks. An excellent point, nancyt. Goren now has something to strive for & someone to care about. Someone with potential ("Donny, he's smart, Frank!") that Bobby can help - and he's family. And we all know how Bobby feels about family. Just.....please Mr. Leight.....finish what you started here.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 8, 2007 9:42:43 GMT -5
goreneamesfan, I agree about Goren becoming more physical lately. I'm sure you are also remembering "Self-Made" and his manhandling Schill. That scene spoke volumes about what Goren is feeling lately post Endgame. I'm sure Schill reminded him of his late father, Mr. Goren, and the usually restrained Detective's armor is cracking at the seams.
In this case with the rapist, I got the impression that Goren had a two fold purpose. Sure, he was outraged that this creep may have raped his nephew - it's personal now. But also, I think the repeated punches were also to get the guards to come & send him to solitary. His reaction to being restrained with the baton was obviously playacting, the "I'm coming for ya." & the maniacal laughing.
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spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Dec 8, 2007 9:49:27 GMT -5
And I may be the only one, but I actually liked the ending! Yes, it's unresolved and sad to the extent that Goren didn't find his nephew; but there's hope in his looking, in his focus on something outside himself, hope for the salvation of the kid now that he has a good man in his life. Goren may be frustrated, but he has a goal now; we know how he goes after his goals; and goals are for hopeful people with a future, not broken-down half-mad wrecks. I actually liked the ending too because it left us with so many questions regarding what Goren will do next. In fact, it was left such that we really don't know what happened to Eames, Ross, or anyone else who helped him at MCS either. In part I'm fine with it knowing that sometimes there really isn't a resolution to things, but I also have a feeling that these issues will be brought back later in the season. Good call about goals - I too saw it as a turning point for him and I also did not see him go over the edge but realize that he could walk the line and come back okay. The points made about all of the "lessons" people needed (or were perceived to have needed) to learn in this episode are very interesting. Seeing all of them written out certainly adds another layer to the story!
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Post by ragincajun on Dec 8, 2007 11:08:05 GMT -5
Do you think the Dr was called Dr.Stern, due to the fact that Andrew McCarthy was on the week before and he was suppose to play Dr. Stern in Zoonotics?
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Post by maherjunkie on Dec 8, 2007 12:34:01 GMT -5
I don't believe you guys! This episode rocked!
Yes, it was extreme, but that was the point-Goren may be unhinging! I can see him doing this for the nephew-he is a good man with a strong sense of family regardless, which makes his words to Frank more puzzling than you would think.
And I loved the end; no it will not have resolution yet but were you really surprised? It is isn't that convenient an episode. And I loved the aimless search through Times Square, and esp. the voices at the end, which I'm surprised nobody commented on.
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