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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 25, 2006 14:08:24 GMT -5
Apologies for not knowing how to do the litle umlaut colon thing over the last "e".
I mentioned Villette on another thread. I think most scholars agree that's Charlotte Bronte's best work, and it is very powerful. At the end I literally felt like I had been kicked in the gut, and walked around in a daze for about a week. (I had some personal issues complicating my reading as well, but let's not go there.) Lucy Snowe is terrific, and I love the interplay with her and Monsieur Paul. I still giggle when he's fussing about her looking at obscene pictures in the gallery.
The only other Charlotte novel I've read is Jane Eyre. Read it just after I turned 13 and became obsessed--constantly rereading, trying to commit passages to memory, and gushing about it every chance I got. Triumph of the Ugly Duckling can have a very powerful hold on a teenage girl. I'm almost afraid to go reread it for fear of losing my admiration--looking back I have to admit that some of it was a bit melodramatic. But Edward Fairfax Rochester was my first love (after Mr. Spock), what can I say?
Personally I'm very fond of Anne Bronte. Maybe cause she was the quiet one, underappreciated in the family--I gotta root for the supporting role. She dealt with some of the practical issues of women's status while Charlotte was all "I am woman hear me roar." Agnes Grey is actually a nice little story--the relevance of a single governess's socioeconomic status may be a bit outdated, but the characters are fascinating, and she did work in a bit of sarcastic humor. I remember thinking at the time "OK, you have a passionate love affair with Rochester, but you settle down to marry and live a happy contented life with Edward Weston."
It's been a while since I read Tenant of Wildfell Hall, but she was dealing with abusive marriages, and a woman taking care of herself and her child, conventions be hanged. If I recall essays correctly she did this as a response to Wuthering Heights, horrified that her sister could glorify such destructive behaviors that killed their own brother. Got to get back to that.
I am most definitely not a fan of Wuthering Heights. Emily was just out in left field somewhere, but I have no sympathy for Heathcliff and Cathy. Hmm, egotistical sadistic manipulative rotter plus vain, self-centered B***h, with their heads collectively up their own and each other's butts...how do people like these characters? I can understand the appeal of running on the moors in a storm, but the people! That's not love, that's messed up. A little easier to get through the second half, even if it does seem like The Secret Garden grew up in a warped and twisted fashion.
OK, I've rambled enough. Somebody jump in!
--Catbird
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Post by spaniard on Aug 25, 2006 14:39:19 GMT -5
I made a big mistake, I saw a few Wuthering Heights movies before reading the book and they contaminated my point of view forever, the book paid for it. I´m not a big fan but I think that in other circumstances I would have loved it. Sorry, Ralph Fiennes as Heathcliff tempted me too much.
My favorite author is Charlotte. Anne seems so needed to please their contemporary audience, trying to show what she has to say as a woman but at the same time trying not to offend too many people and Emily was the opposite, being a complete irresponsible. Charlotte was calmed too but I see her as a balance between the two forces at home.
These sisters have great books but as it happens with writers, their lives are more interesting than their books. The Brontës had an interesting but short life, including their brother.
My love for these books, prerraphaelist paintings and sad music made my parents worry when I was a teen. Now I don´t listen to sad music but I still love the romantic painting and novels about dark mysterious castles and romantic heroines. Yeah, I´m able to read Brontë and Allan Poe on the same night and still be sane. And cause I like a good atmosphere, I use a soft light, a comfortable armchair and a bag of mini snickers...because you know that they were very popular then ;D. I don´t drink coke because, ehem, I´m very strict with the scenario.
P.S. There is a french movie that talks about their lives and looks quite exact (as exact as a movie can be), it is called Les soeurs Brontë ( The Brontë sisters). It is french and ist is about 35 years old, with Isabelle Adjani as Emily. You should give it a try.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 27, 2006 23:37:46 GMT -5
SPANIARD, See, to me, Anne was just a little more subtle in her writing. I'm sure she was hurt that people misinterpreted her as vulgar, she just didn't have to be right up in people's faces defying convention like Emily and Charlotte. When you read biographical essays--not just Charlotte's, but other peoples--you realize that Anne often had to be a sort of intermediary between Charlotte and Emily. Her own sisters tended to marginalize her, and with Charlotte the only one left to tell the story, of course she would be remembered as the quiet meek and mild one. She played nice for the sake of family harmony, but there's a good bit of sarcasm and pointed observations. (Some people have compared her to Jane Austen, whom Charlotte did not like, and they theorize that that's why Charlotte didn't quite understand or appreciate her.)
As to the adaptations, we only saw clips of the Ralph Fiennes in last spring's lit course. Personally I thought that Fiennes, while often swoonworthy, was just not suited for the part. THe lady who played Cathy/Catherine was even worse.
Bad film adaptations of Jane Eyre leave me furious. Orson Welles stunk to high heaven. However, the Timothy Dalton/Zelah Clark from the '80s was spot on. They actually stuck to most of the novel! (OK, technically Dalton is too handsome for Rochester, but he had the personality nailed.)
JANETHYLAND I'm blanking, what was "Vacancy"?
Too bad your kids didn't pick up on literature, but maybe it'll come to them later. Or they might find something else perfectly suited to them. I just grew up in a family of readers. What was it Anna Quindlen said: "I will be most happy if my children grow up to be the kind of people for whom decorating mostly consists of putting up enough bookshelves." My parents just moved me into a smaller room, but the upside is Dad is building me some new shelves. They'll take up about half the wall space, so between my books and a few knick-knacks that'll be just about right!
I don't deny that Wuthering Heights was powerfully written, or that Emily certainly had a gift for crafting characters--despicable though they be! I guess I'm just too practical and simple-minded in that they don't personally appeal to me. Well, Cathy and Heathcliff don't; Little Catherine and Hareton (Did I get the name right? Not Heathcliff's son, but the disowned cousin) are easier for me to sympathize with because they grow and develop as people.
But the power of nature--that I can go with. Except I didn't really get that from the book itself. In movie adaptations (most of which are hit and miss) you get the cinematography and Cathy's windblown hair, but I don't recall that many actual scenes in the novel. But yeah, the wind, running over the moors, that part calls to me. When thunderstorms come up my urge is not to go inside, but rather to stand out in the rain.
For pure humor, I suggest going to Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series. The books themselves are wonderful, and loaded with references to classic literature. The Well of Lost Plots features our intrepid heroine Thursday, along with Miss Havisham, chairing the rage management counseling session for the cast of Wuthering Heights. Absolutely hysterical.
For pure masochism/MST3K potential, the MTV TV adaptation of Wuthering Heights from 2003. "Heath" is now a tortured singer songwriter living in a lighthouse on the rocky California coast. Television Without Pity has a great sarcastic recap of the thing. Unbelievably horrid turd, with lousy music, but at least you can say you survived it. Your television screen may not be so lucky.
--Catbird
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Post by sarahlee on Aug 28, 2006 11:48:27 GMT -5
"Jane Eyre" was my favourite gloomy-teenager-phase novel. I still love the story. Does anyone think that VDO would make the perfect "Rochester"? But who would play "Jane"? Someone very young, and plain; that's always been my problem with the "Eyre" movies--the actresses.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 28, 2006 13:21:39 GMT -5
"Does anyone think that VDO would make the perfect "Rochester"? But who would play "Jane"? Someone very young, and plain; that's always been my problem with the "Eyre" movies--the actresses. Not trying to be ugly, but if D'Onofrio were to play Rochester I would run screaming into the night. He's actually a bit too old. And I remember being less than impressed with his accent in "Case of Evil". Obviously he's a talented actor who can do a variety of roles, but Edward Fairfax Rochester ain't one of them. Yes, it would be a melodramatic outing, but we don't want a ham! And I feel that on occassion D'Onofrio pushes hammy in a "Watch me emote!" fashion--I definitely do NOT want that in Mr. Rochester, my first love. As to the actresses playing Jane, I thought Zelah Clarke was the best I've seen. She actually is little, like Jane. And I think the tricky part is "plain". "Plain" does not necessarily equal "butt-ugly", just not a knock-out. I think a lot of times they get a pretty actress and just leave off the makeup, which is not it at all. (Side note: Agnes Grey, as written by Anne Bronte, also makes a comment or two about feeling plain compared to her wealthy charges, but she doesn't turn it into a major issue. Contemporary sources leave records that Anne was actually the cute one in the family--not drop-dead gorgeous, but not unattractive either. This was one factor in people getting condescending about "Aww, Jane Eyre's little sister.") The Broadway musical Jane Eyre came out some years ago. I've only heard the soundtrack, but meh. A couple OK songs, but they made Rochester a whiny wussy tenor! Exact quote from the book: "Mr. Rochester? Oh he has a fine bass voice." (Don't know the chapter, but Mrs. Fairfax was describing the get-togethers and Blanche Ingraham to Jane.) Idiots! Sorry, I'm an alto. I heard that Masterpiece Theatre will be showing a new adaptation of Jane Eyre sometime in 2007. Anybody know about this? --Catbird
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Post by spaniard on Aug 28, 2006 15:57:44 GMT -5
I agree on that, VDO wouldn´t the best choice but William Hurt wasn´t the best either. If I had to choose between both, I choose VDO.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 29, 2006 11:01:53 GMT -5
Oops--which episode was "Vacancy"? I can't remember a plot or the character Rainey.
Ah, the bookshelves. In my old room I had two shelves jammed full (one tall, one short), and tons of stacks, paper bags, etc. all over the place. Ideally, with half the wallspace being bookshelves in the new room, I'll have enough room. It helps for now that I've got my old favorites here at school--even if I have no time for "fun reading" (meaning not school assignments), it's comforting to know that they're there. Unfortunately when I go in a bookstore I'll binge, so I must have thirty-some books I haven't read yet taking up space everywhere!
Ooh, you and your kids speak Gaelic? I am so jealous! I had about five years of French before I came to college, which is helpful with the Brontes (!), but I wish I knew something else. Gaelic, Welsh, all those pre-English languages just seem fascinating.
Like I said, I just grew up surrounded by readers. Mom always had different novels, and though Dad doesn't have time to read often he enjoys essays, magazines--professional journals-- and non-fiction (he tends to catch up over vacations). So I always had books, my parents always read to me, and "Sesame Street" got me off to a good start. My brother is also a reader, but strictly of the non-fiction military genre.
Back to the Brontes; I've only caught a couple bits of criticism here and there, but some of the analysis can be fascinating. (It also has the tendency to make mountains out of molehills, I think, but it really depends.) I'll keep my eye out for BBC adaptations.
Is it sad when I start relating completely unrelated genres? I don't know if you're familiar with country music, but Lucinda Williams wrote a song that I heard performed by Mary CHapin Carpenter. "Passionate Kisses", I heard that on the CD and my thought was "Oh my gosh! That is such a Bronte song!" If you need the lyrics I'll post a link or something.
--Catbird
PS: Remember a while back you asked if I had read Eliade? I haven't, but our library has the booksale of old paperbacks and such in one corner. What should I see there over the weekend but Mircea Eliade's The Sacred and the Profane. "Janethyland!" I thought, and fifty cents later that puppy's mine. One more to the pile of "You know, I really ought to read that one of these days..."
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Post by spaniard on Aug 29, 2006 15:17:45 GMT -5
I´ve been dealing with french for only a year and I´m already tired of it. And I speak a language very close to french, with the same roots but how similar languages look until you study them and you see that the differences are bigger than the similarities. French is so sexy...and so hard!
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 30, 2006 15:31:59 GMT -5
Janethyland, That was a Twilight Zone moment with the Eliade, huh? Doo-de-doo-doo, doo-de-doo-doo. But I must finish the Morse novel, and then I have The Fourth Bear, and you see my dillemma! Though The Sacred and the Profane is definitely at the top of the list!
Spaniard, To me, French was never that romantic--maybe just the cliche of it. That's the one accent that doesn't set me off! (I don't complain, mind you, cause an accent is an accent, but it doesn't get me giggly/swoony.) I'm much more likely to be intrigued by Spanish accents (I know there are variations), or Indian, or Russian, or any of the UK regions + Ireland...you get the idea.
I do know how much of (continental) Spanish culture owes to the Arabs. "History of Spain" course from last spring, just a 300-level taught because the professor's specialty is Spain, but we did so much of the culture...we were reading excerpts from Teresa of Avila and some of the Exemplary Stories by Cervantes. I love it when my history courses work in some enjoyable reading material.
--Catbird
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 30, 2006 16:19:28 GMT -5
Key word being "excerpts" from Teresa. Yes I want to read the whole thing, but being a history class we were more interested in the social context, place of women in society, etc.
The others you mentioned, no we didn't talk about. That sounds like a timing issue though, because our focus was supposed to be the Golden Age of the Empire. A lot of medieval build-up, especially the Arab/Islamic rule, but pretty much Ferdinand and Isabella through the 1700s. The impression you gave was that those were later scholars. And plus, the course objective was to work on research skills, so we spent a lot of time building a bibliography.
Ooh, read Maria de Zayas. She was my topic, and she's awesome. And I was reading the translation! (H. Patsy Boyer, from one of the SUNY presses.) The Enchantments of Love and The Disenchantments of Love. All sorts of relationships, power struggles, symbolism, magic, etc. that you can really sink your teeth into. I gotta get my own copies, last semester I just checked them out of the library.
Umm, topic, the Brontes. The Tom Cruise thread about religion made me remember. Anne Bronte managed to sneak in some references about the Methodists into Agnes Grey (and I think Tenant of Wildfell Hall but that I'm fuzzy on). Mainly the Anglican preacher accusing one parishioner with "religious melancholy" that "You've been listening to the Methodists, my good woman." Nancy is shocked and appalled, cause she hadn't been near 'em! Hee! Like I said, I grew up Methodist, so I giggled.
(Fielding also got in some snark about the Methodists, but I won't go there.)
--Catbird
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Post by sarahlee on Aug 30, 2006 17:28:11 GMT -5
"The Chieftains" did and album years ago connecting Irish and Spanish music. I haven't heard it in a long time, but I remember enjoying it. We even studied it in Music Appreciation & History.
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Post by spaniard on Aug 30, 2006 20:18:21 GMT -5
Some people think spaniards only speak spanish and we have lots of languages and dialects. My relatives (and me) speak two of them so we have three languages in the family including spanish. Although our level of foreign languages is low, we have a great interest about the gaelic culture.
We are a culture made of all cultures. We have been invaded by lots of civilizations and them all left their mark. Celtic culture is very strong in the north, you can see it in the music and gastronomy. Even the weather there is like the irish!
I study philology and I've noticed that almost all the words we use come from somewhere else. All the mediterranean countries have lots of things in common because we have invaded or have been invaded by the same people. That's what means to be a very old continent, '500 years ago' is almost yesterday and you have a lot of guests in 20 centuries.
About El Greco, he's a very disturbing artist and although people usually remember his work by the long and bony figures, I think his strength is in the eyes, very deep eyes with a sad look. Well, I think it's an old look more than sad, like if they said 'I've seen too much'.
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Post by madger on Aug 31, 2006 9:11:27 GMT -5
Janethyland, get ye to El Prado in Madrid if you get a chance. I love El Greco, I'm attracted to dark and macabre for some reason.
My favorite language is Portuguese, it has a musical quality, more so than Italian, but I only speak Spanish and English I'm the dummy in my family, everyone else speaks French also.
Brontes, read Wuthering Heights, hated it, you have to like someone in a novel, but as far as I was concerned they all deserved each other. That turned me off of Emily. I did enjoy Jane Eyre, see above about dark and gloomy.
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Post by spaniard on Aug 31, 2006 13:12:09 GMT -5
Portuguese is so sexy! I think I find all the foreign languages sexy In my family my sister and me are the brightest because we managed to learn english. The rest of my family including my cousins do not speak anything that aren´t their mother languages. And they say that foreign languages are a waste of time if spanish is worldwide. Grrrr. My kids will know at least two foreign languages. English won´t be one of them because it will be already one of their natural languages since George Clooney is going to be their father. ;D Seriously, I think that foreign languages are very important but unfortunately in Spain schools are lame about that subject.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 31, 2006 14:36:44 GMT -5
Like I said, five years of French (started Middle School, took the AP course my senior year). When I came to college I not only placed out from the exam, but I also had six hours of credit from the AP exam. I should have taken a language here, but I didn't have to, and too many other courses looked more interesting (like literature!). Well, one semester of Latin, but I couldn't continue due to other courses and requirements. I am in such awe of people who can handle more than one--Spaniard and others posting in a not-mother language. But I was right! www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/news/20060726_pbs2007slate.htmlJust the relevant portion here: " MASTERPIECE THEATRE "Jane Eyre" (two two-hour programs, January 2007) A new adaptation of Charlotte Brontë's beloved gothic novel about the passionate courtship between a governess and her tortured master. Directed by Susanna White ("Bleak House"), the cast includes Georgie Henley (The Chronicles of Narnia) and newcomer Ruth Wilson as the young and grown Jane respectively, and Toby Stephens (son of Maggie Smith; The Queen's Sister, Cambridge Spies) as Mr. Rochester. " So, that's January 2007 for us in the States; I'm guessing the UK people will be getting it this fall or so. Let us know how it is! --Catbird
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