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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 12, 2008 8:19:12 GMT -5
It is too coincidental that the 10-13 benefit for Copa and Stoats looking for Goren happen at the same time...and in Goren's neighborhood bar.[/quote] I wondered if this bar was just a "cop" watering hole. Not Goren's neighborhood bar. It would make sense that he would gravitate towards a place like that. He would feel a sense of still belonging and a level of comfort. A familiar place to drown an unfamiliar and uncomfortable situation. I noticed that he was seated at the end of the bar away from the crowd. That sums up his relationship with the NYPD....a member but one on the outer edge. Someone who belonged but yet didn't. That could be why the 1013 benefit was being held there and also why Stoats was present. Just a random thought......
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 12, 2008 8:29:15 GMT -5
From watching other shows any payback would include slow response to a call for backup or help. Allowing Goren to unknowingly walk into a dangerous situation. Or even withholding information concerning an investigation. Anything to make him look bad or have to work harder even to the point of incompetance. All he while his personnel file is filling with bad boy reports. Since those reports are made by the higher ups the reports can be slanted or biased. Enough crap in his jacket and at some point his job would be taken from him.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 12, 2008 9:17:55 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly. Every episode I hope for a return to the Goren of old only to have my hopes dashed. I will always be a fan of the show but my favorite time of the series was when he was young, quirky and with spring in his step and on top of his game. Optimism wafting around him. You don't really think we'll see that, do you, DiabloD? I don't know how many lead TV actors have ever participated heavily in the development of their own characters, but -- from all reports over the years -- that Mr. D'Onofrio's arrangement on CI. That so many of us can speculate on and interpret endlessly the self-concepts, motivations and (as yet unrevealed) possibilities of Goren's backstory may be attributed to the character's depth and richness... ...or we may (perhaps more cynically) regard the constant season-to-season change in Goren as a set of interesting acting exercises designed to keep engaged our creatively restless star. Even Season 5 -- "the Lost Season" -- might be charitably interpreted as D'Onofrio's experimentation with the Stanislavsky exercise of trying to be interesting while doing nothing. My point is: D'Onofrio has never returned to any version of Bobby that he's already explored. Which is not to say I don't understand your desire for the return of Seasons 1-3's Fun Bobby. The last year-and-a-half has been pretty much all Eugene O'Neill. While I like the backstory stuff, I see no reason why all of it has to be tragic -- except that it's meaty material for an actor. I hope D'Onofrio decides soon that his next CI acting challenge will be the progressive, logical lightening up of Goren. I don't care if he and the writers don't bring back the old Fun Bobby per se -- I'd just like to see an episode that not only isn't awash in angst, it also produces an out-loud laugh. I miss watching D'Onofrio create surprising bits of business that are misery-free. AL
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 12, 2008 9:36:16 GMT -5
My sentiments exactly. Every episode I hope for a return to the Goren of old only to have my hopes dashed. I will always be a fan of the show but my favorite time of the series was when he was young, quirky and with spring in his step and on top of his game. Optimism wafting around him. You don't really think we'll see that, do you, DiabloD? I don't know how many lead TV actors have ever participated heavily in the development of their own characters, but -- from all reports over the years -- that Mr. D'Onofrio's arrangement on CI. That so many of us can speculate on and interpret endlessly the self-concepts, motivations and (as yet unrevealed) possibilities of Goren's backstory may be attributed to the character's depth and richness... ...or we may (perhaps more cynically) regard the constant season-to-season change in Goren as a set of interesting acting exercises designed to keep engaged our creatively restless star. Even Season 5 -- "the Lost Season" -- might be charitably interpreted as D'Onofrio's experimentation with the Stanislavsky exercise of trying to be interesting while doing nothing. My point is: D'Onofrio has never returned to any version of Bobby that he's already explored. Which is not to say I don't understand your desire for the return of Seasons 1-3's Fun Bobby. The last year-and-a-half has been pretty much all Eugene O'Neill. While I like the backstory stuff, I see no reason why all of it has to be tragic -- except that it's meaty material for an actor. I hope D'Onofrio decides soon that his next CI acting challenge will be the progressive, logical lightening up of Goren. I don't care if he and the writers don't bring back the old Fun Bobby per se -- I'd just like to see an episode that not only isn't awash in angst, it also produces an out-loud laugh. I miss watching D'Onofrio create surprising bits of business that are misery-free. AL Alas....you are right, we will never see "early Bobby" again. The character has been twisted and turned until almost unrecognizable, at least for me. While I yearn for the good old days of LOCI I know the show will proceed with the story arc and explore other trials and tribulations for Goren. I think the PTB will throw the fans an occasional bone but will they take angst ridden Bobby back to a mental and physical semblance of his former self? I know you can't be 41 forever but what has happened in these last few seasons has taken its toll physically and mentally on the character.....and to some extent the fans!! We can't have old Bobby, we don't want current Bobby, just throw us the Bobby has it together bone. Please....
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 12, 2008 17:04:56 GMT -5
He's still my hero, more so now than ever, because he's so human. We saw flaws before, but we never saw real fear in him, or the hopelessness he seems prone to these days, so he seemed superhuman. And no one is, so when you get down to it, you see the flawed human beneath the "superhuman" exterior that they present. I've seen him all along as the guy who pretends to have it all together but inside, he's a tangled mess. I've seen that in him for a long time, but we didn't get it like we do now. There were just bits and pieces. Now, we see that human heart that's been so bruised, and the defenses he's put up to try and keep it safe. Sometimes, as with the self-deceptive avoidance, to his own detriment. In this way, Alex had a point. He does self-inflict some things. Not all, though. Many of his worst wounds were made long before, he was old enough to know how to handle them. He needed the kick in the pants, I'll grant that. At least partially. But then he needs a hug, darn it! Word, outerbankschick. And I volunteer to give him that hug! See, we can take turns! Then he gets all the hugs he needs, and then some!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 12, 2008 17:14:46 GMT -5
I'd like a little of that "Bobby has it together bone" - to go please! I do wish they'd give us a little more insight into Alex's family, too. Like how she is feeling about the fact that she essentially gave up her own son for her sister (since it was her egg that was used for the IVF). There has to be a lot of emotions involved with all of that and we haven't really seen that explored much. Or seen how she was faring on the inside after her kidnapping. Stoic and tough as she was about all that, we all know that on the inside, things were happening. But we never get to know those things about her. So I'd like a little "Alex opens up" bone - sort of like what we got in "Amends".
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 12, 2008 18:28:56 GMT -5
The thing is...Eames' back story isn't interesting enough. By now, we know she comes from a family of civil servants and while she's a widow, she seems able and willing to go after the bad guys, while following her partner's lead. Up to this point, she demonstrated the willingness to follow Goren's lead, and gained from it.
Wrench into the works: I can't get over the fact she didn't pick up on the subtle clues Ross tossed her. Geeze, when she told Goren she picked up the "tourist murders" and he turned away, I'm thinking..."Hello Eames!" Maybe she needs Goren more than she cares to admit.
Self inflicted wounds? I think those came from season 5-7. Certainly, his parents can't be blamed for everything. While on that subject, I don't think Eames is very sympathetic to Goren's background. She has everything he doesn't. Mom, dad, brothers, apple pie and nephews.
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 12, 2008 18:41:03 GMT -5
And, another thing: Come on...Stoat was looking for Goren, knew he was suspended and knew about his record in narcotics. According to Stoat, Goren is a rat? I'm wondering what in the hell Stoat expected. I'm thinking this isn't the last of Mike Stoat.
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 12, 2008 19:19:22 GMT -5
Tat stats! And Major Case has pull when it comes to autopsies. Yeah, when the captain of MC is sleeping with the ME, yeah I guess so! ;D Two of the lighter moments of this episode.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 12, 2008 19:32:18 GMT -5
I don't know how many lead TV actors have ever participated heavily in the development of their own characters, but -- from all reports over the years -- that Mr. D'Onofrio's arrangement on CI. And according to Siobhan O'Connor, Vincent participated in the writing of the scene with Stoats in the interrogation room. When he said "I am nothing like you." to Stoats, I think that was more than just a statement to Stoats. It seemed to me that he's starting to have a little more confidence in himself. While he is undercover in the club, he appears to be uncomfortable and unsure of himself. But is he really? He knows who he is - a good cop who wants his badge back. He doesn't get into fights, take drugs, or kill people. He chose not to fight with Copa. He chose not to snort the coke, waiting for a moment...an interruption maybe...that miraculously comes his way. When he put the gun to the dealer's head, he knew the cops were listening and would be bursting in the door momentarily, so he took out his gun and acted like he was really going to do it. But we all know, and so does he, that he wouldn't kill someone in cold blood. And when he enters the interrogation room to question Stoats, he is strong and confident, as always. He is Detective Robert Goren, Major Case Squad. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't think he is changed all that much. Yes he had had some traumatic things happen to him and he is somewhat socially inept at dealing with people, but he always was! As Stoats said in regard to Robert's popularity in Narcotics Squad, he "wasn't too popular" and "Some things never change." He doesn't have much fun at work anymore, but when your mother dies, your drug addicted brother pops in & out of your life, you are tortured & dehydrated, your nephew escapes from jail & goes missing, and you are suspended from your job without pay, maybe you don't feel like laughing! He'll get over it in time, but I believe we need to give him that time to recover from these terrible chapters in his life. In the meantime, we get to see some interesting crime stories and see Vincent and Kathryn flex their acting muscles. I love the exploration of Robert's character and life...and Alex's too. LOCI is the best show on television!
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on Jun 12, 2008 20:28:16 GMT -5
It's interesting to read that the majority's opinion is that Eames didn't have any idea that Goren was undercover. My take was that by the time that they sent what's-his-name back to the club with the wire, Eames had a pretty good idea that Goren might be involved, but she wasn't sure how.
Also, I don't think the delay in storming the room after the wire was discovered was that significant. Clearly, the team didn't expect that the wire would be discovered immediately, and they had to come up with a Plan B on the fly.
Overall, I think Purgatory was a good episode, but it wasn't a great one. For me, two particular scenes stand out. First, I was riveted by the expression on Eames' face when she came face to face with Goren at the club, both with guns drawn. Kate Erbe can emote more with her facial expressions than most actors can with an entire page of dialogue. She gave us shock, fear, anger and betrayal, all within ten seconds. It's too bad she couldn't submit Purgatory as her Emmy reel instead of Amends.
The second scene which I enjoyed was the confrontation between Eames and Goren and the "your wounds are self-inflicted" speech. Again, I think Goren had it coming, but I can also see how Goren can justify his point of view. As soon as he said something about how he couldn't tell her about the undercover operation because he was under orders not to do so, I knew--and he should have known--he said the wrong thing. NOW you decide to follow orders? (LOL)
One final thought...since it's the end of a long day, and I'm running out of gas...I can't get the line "your wounds are self-inflicted" out of my head. I think that line could apply to most people. Our lives are, for the most part, shaped by the choices we make, good or bad. Sure, there are problems or events in our lives which are beyond our control, but how we handle them IS within our control.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 12, 2008 20:43:42 GMT -5
The thing is...Eames' back story isn't interesting enough. By now, we know she comes from a family of civil servants and while she's a widow, she seems able and willing to go after the bad guys, while following her partner's lead. Up to this point, she demonstrated the willingness to follow Goren's lead, and gained from it. Wrench into the works: I can't get over the fact she didn't pick up on the subtle clues Ross tossed her. Geeze, when she told Goren she picked up the "tourist murders" and he turned away, I'm thinking..."Hello Eames!" Maybe she needs Goren more than she cares to admit. Self inflicted wounds? I think those came from season 5-7. Certainly, his parents can't be blamed for everything. While on that subject, I don't think Eames is very sympathetic to Goren's background. She has everything he doesn't. Mom, dad, brothers, apple pie and nephews. Excellent point, about Alex not being very sympathetic. I think she just tends to take having her family in her life for granted. She doesn't seem to really "get" how it is for people who don't have what she does. Bobby has no support system, except for her. She's got her family. When he's struggling and needs someone to lean on, who does he go to? She can go to brothers, her sister, her dad, yada yada. . .Of course, we don't know the Eames family dynamic, but I'm willing to bet that while they surely have their issues, like any other family, they have nowhere near the kind of upset and drama that Bobby's family had. So maybe part of her anger is really misdirected because she just doesn't understand what it's like for him. She really doesn't get it. His job is all he has. . . she is all he has. In losing one, he essentially lost both. So now he has the job back, but she's angry and distancing herself, so he's still floundering. And I'm with you. . .she should have picked up the clues. We know she suspected something was up. It was obvious she knew something was going on. Just not the details. And she had to know Bobby was involved somehow.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Jun 12, 2008 21:41:53 GMT -5
Over the years Goren's life has had a slow spiral down. My guess, since VDO participates in his characters direction, this was his way of experimenting with Goren. Maybe he has a plan now to regenerate Goren. Redemption. Sherlock Holmes was not a happy man, but he was smart. Tortured, like Goren in some ways, smart and able to get the job done. After each case, he was still a mess. Hope Goren isn't always a mess, and just gets down to solving cases. I don't know if Erbe has any involvement in her character development. I hope they give her more to do, than just be Goren's helper. She did a really good job in this one. I think that the person who delivered the rat, will be seen soon. Maybe an insider that will be the person that Goren must always look over his shoulder to see if he is being watched or undermined.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 13, 2008 7:02:21 GMT -5
Even Season 5 -- "the Lost Season" -- might be charitably interpreted as D'Onofrio's experimentation with the Stanislavsky exercise of trying to be interesting while doing nothing. My point is: D'Onofrio has never returned to any version of Bobby that he's already explored. AL AL, your guess on what was going on with Season 5 Goren really made me chuckle. And I totally agree that once VDO changes Goren up, he has never reverted back. This is very true to real life, as none of us ever return to our old selves, either physically or emotionally, as much as we might try to. It's never quite the same. And besides, Vincent has no interest in revisiting vintage Goren. Not to mention that at his current age & weight, it would be more ridiculous than nostalgic. He knows that. I agree that Eames has never walked in Goren's shoes, and therefore doesn't truly "get" how alone he is and how devastating his past is. If she did, she would have never urged him to speak to Frank outside 1PP. Bobby knew how much trouble Frank could be. And by guilting Bobby into helping Donny, Frank sure instigated a ton of woe for his brother. Is Eames to blame for that, even inadvertently? As far as Eames picking up Ross' clues - she did. She challenged him quite a few times, but he evaded her. So yes, she had her suspicions. But never in a million years did she believe that Bobby would go under cover & not tell her.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 13, 2008 7:17:15 GMT -5
she should have picked up the clues.
She's picking up that something's off, the whole episode. Watch her face. Maybe she just really thought that as senior partner, and as someone who's very important to Goren, she would be apprised of what was going on.
I must disagree that Eames is unsympathetic to Goren. She does what she can, expressing sympathy for his family issues and he closes her out all the time ("In the Wee Small Hours," "The War at Home," "Siren Call.") But she has to work with what he gives her to work with. Also, how is her back story not interesting? How has she not suffered as much as he has?
Sorry if I am coming across a little strongly on this one. There has a been a reasonable amount of negativity about the character on another board, and I feel it's unwarranted. I also seriously doubt that this backlash would be happening if she weren't a female character :/
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