Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on Jun 9, 2008 9:10:31 GMT -5
I agree with what Patcat said about mirroring partnerships. I was constantly thinking of mirrors during the episode. Purgatory is a place of atonement, paying for your sins and time spent there is finite (six months for Goren?). Forgive the old catholic school catechism memories, but we used to say prayers and offer good acts up for "the poor souls in Purgatory." It was a place of separation and sadness with possibility of redemption. Apt title for this episode, but both Goren and Eames were in Purgatory.
Eames, looking at Bobby's desk, calling him, and finally tracking him down, felt the separation keenly. Goren, going undercover and being cut off, had to atone (do penance) for his mistakes.
Stoats was a sad figure because he had given up and Goren easily saw where he himself could be headed. Stoats was what Bobby could have become and you see Goren struggling with that when Stoats is beating up the guy that owes the boss money. Goren recognized the anger and made attempts to pull Stoats away, but it's got to be an individual decision. Then Goren sees how Stoats has corrupted his partner (who has also been disciplined) and because she still looks to Stoats as her partner, she gets turned in by her new partner. Mirror that with Eames busting through the door, gun drawn and staring right into the face of her own partner and then the sense of betrayal of finding out he was undercover.
It made me sad at the end when Goren happily (or relieved?) sat down at his desk and Eames (who had been watching that same desk) takes off. He finds the rat and knows that atonement may not be over by a long shot.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 9, 2008 10:42:23 GMT -5
The wonderful people at the reel have great screen caps up.
And the USA Network LOCI site has a video interview with Ms. O'Connor, the writer of this episode.
In her attack on Goren, Eames didn't use the one thing I think that really could've fatally wounded Goren and the partnership. She didn't bring up the attack on her by Jo Gage.
Patcat
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jun 9, 2008 11:00:21 GMT -5
For those who couldn't see the new episode yet: Was it altogether a good or bad one for the partnership of Goren and Eames?
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Post by deathroe on Jun 9, 2008 11:30:03 GMT -5
Stoats was what Bobby could have become
Although I think that part of the point was that he never did. We have never seen Goren be anything less than upstanding.
I would like to put a more positive spin on Eames' upset. I feel like, if they were less close, this would not have happened. Hopefully now they can heal: I don't think I could take another season of their partnership being this way!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 11:48:43 GMT -5
For those who couldn't see the new episode yet: Was it altogether a good or bad one for the partnership of Goren and Eames? There is more strain on the partnership. It will take time and work to heal it.
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angiealight
Rookie
Shine on, you crazy diamond
Posts: 4
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Post by angiealight on Jun 9, 2008 12:08:04 GMT -5
Hi folks, just had to share my thoughts on this one. Not... especially cohesive, this post, sorry. I think I need another viewing (or two!) for that. ***** Via wikipedia: Wow... that was one hell of an episode! I was on pins and needles the entire show. Good to see our Detective Goren stepping it back up. Shell shocked? I don't know. It's been six months (not saying that traumatic events don't take time). The wound isn't completely healed yet, though, obviously. We rejoined our hero at a dark time. Certainly depressed. Then in sweeps Mike Stoat (heh, nice name, weasel.). He defends Goren, says the right things, gets his foot in the door of trust. And so begins the trial by fire. The task that will either cleanse Goren of his "sins" or damn him. What a tension-filled episode. One couldn't help but feel bad for Eames, kept in the dark. She's a detective, and a damned good one. She misses her partner. Though she can function without him, they're both better as a team. Well-played by the actors. I've spent plenty of time onstage; some of my favorite moments of acting/watching actors work are those silent moments. Katherine's expressions of shock, confusion, and hurt at finding herself pointing her weapon at her partner - and finding him pointing a gun at her - were superb; her frustration at his absence; her determination to get the job done... And, of course, Vincent is a master of subtlety and silent acting. Pain, hope, relief, fear - all beautifully evident. It was so good to see Himself back in the interrogation room, across the table from a wrong-doer. Oh - the "thirty pieces of silver" line. Goren as Judas. And the chat with the Chief, he was so anxious to get his shield back (to exit purgatory), so hopeful; I was almost as relieved as he was when he did. Oh - the scene where Eames finally gave Goren an earful - fantastic. She needed to say those things, and Goren needed to hear them. He's so single-minded in his "relentless pursuit of evil" (so to speak), certain things slip past his radar. And then he doesn't know to make things right again. "I'm sorry" doesn't always cut it. And sometimes, you just have to let yourself be angry before you can move on. Eames will get over her anger (worry multiplied by frustration, with a dash of resentment can equal a big heaping dose of pissed-off). Goren will get past his wounds (as Alex said - mostly self-inflicted. Self-flagellation in atonement for his perceived failures?). Bad people will be apprehended and punished; good people will be saved. And then, as Goren returns "home", the rat in the drawer, the pan around the office... that hurt. I almost wanted to cry there. :/ Purgatory... it makes you wonder - do we ever truly escape it? Home. Atonement. Reward. Punishment. Maybe Bobby is still in a state of "purgatory", but he's at least one step closer to heaven.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 12:11:34 GMT -5
It made me sad at the end when Goren happily (or relieved?) sat down at his desk and Eames (who had been watching that same desk) takes off. He finds the rat and knows that atonement may not be over by a long shot. When Goren sat down at his desk it was as if he was back where he belonged. Everything in his world would be right now. He doesn't really belong anywhere else in this world but at that desk......that's where he belongs. His niche, his little piece of turf. It's where he shines. It's what he is best at. He had a smile on his face an "atta boy" from the Chief of Ds and an almost gleeful sense about things. Until he found the rat. Then the realization that he was still an outsider, not accepted, a pariah. The fleeting joy and relief of a triumphant return suddenly replaced by a sense of vulnerability......with perhaps a growing sense of paranoia. Eames felt as alone as Bobby did when she left for maternity leave. Eames aggressively defended Goren's desk when Stoats made himself comfy at it. Almost as if he was soiling it. Eames was the keeper of his desk until his return. Perhaps she felt as long as it was empty, Goren would be coming back at some point.
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angiealight
Rookie
Shine on, you crazy diamond
Posts: 4
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Post by angiealight on Jun 9, 2008 12:46:31 GMT -5
Now that I've read the rest of the thread, I'd like to respond to some of the ideas previously mentioned. ^_^ I really think there's some over-reading into the Chief of Detectives' actions/attitudes. He's not a bad guy. He's a guy in a position that has to look at the whole picture; while Goren is a man who sees the minutiae. The Chief has to examine the actions of his detectives and respond accordingly to uphold the department; even if it means smacking down a detective to grunt work, demotion, or even suspension. But he also has to recognize a job well done. He's an old-school guy, not big on pomp and circumstance. He just put the plate on the table (having his shield would be like a feast for Goren!), said "good job," and went on his way. I didn't feel any ulterior motives in the guy. It didn't feel offhanded or sarcastic disrespectful or anything like that. (Of course, if I'm found to be wrong in in my sizing-up of the CoD's, I'll gladly eat my hat. I've got a nice, crispy straw cowboy hat, lol XD). And Danny Ross. He's a genuinely good guy. I like him. As to Bobby's "father figure quest"... more on that later.
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jun 9, 2008 13:03:34 GMT -5
Until he found the rat. Then the realization that he was still an outsider, not accepted, a pariah. The fleeting joy and relief of a triumphant return suddenly replaced by a sense of vulnerability......with perhaps a growing sense of paranoia. Until he found what rat? Could you please explain? Thanks in advance!
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angiealight
Rookie
Shine on, you crazy diamond
Posts: 4
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Post by angiealight on Jun 9, 2008 13:05:10 GMT -5
Until he found the rat. Then the realization that he was still an outsider, not accepted, a pariah. The fleeting joy and relief of a triumphant return suddenly replaced by a sense of vulnerability......with perhaps a growing sense of paranoia. Until he found what rat? Could you please explain? Thanks in advance! The dead rat that was in his desk drawer.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 9, 2008 13:10:47 GMT -5
What I have trouble forgiving the Chief of D's for is his support of Patrick Copa in AMENDS, which I believe led to Goren's justifiable paranoia regarding the Chief. Copa should have live rats in his desk, ready to bite the whining (please fill in the blank with your choice of expletive).
Patcat
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Jun 9, 2008 13:19:58 GMT -5
I thought it was a great episode! Bobby wasn't whining. It wasn't all about poor Bobby. Eames stood up for herself, which she should have done a long time ago. Ross shown he was a good guy although he could have let Eames in on it a little. You could tell she was mad at Ross too, but couldn't/wouldn't tell him off. Best G/E episode in a long time!!
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jun 9, 2008 13:31:05 GMT -5
Is it known who put the rat in his desk?
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Post by SarahIvy on Jun 9, 2008 14:27:07 GMT -5
Ok, I will say up front that this was not as bad as I was expecting it to be, so kudos to them for not presenting massive suck. It's really become an entirely different show though, at least for me. Had some issues with Dean Winters as Stoat....I thought he did a great job and I generally enjoy him in things (he's been HILARIOUS lately on 30 Rock ) but since I could not for the life of me remember his character's name from SVU (Cassidy!), I spent about half the episode thinking that obviously he must be that same character. I mean, it's one thing to bring in the same actors over and over for small supporting roles and in fact I love spotting repeat offenders, but using an actor who previously played one of the main detectives on SVU? That was really needlessly confusing. --Why introduce Copa at the beginning at all? Is this case a prelude to something bigger? I’m wondering if we aren’t up for Chief of D’s corruption drama at some point this summer. --No Frank or Donny. I didn’t miss them—did you? 1) I was thinking the exact same thing. I suspect this may be part of an arc for the Summer as well. 2) NO! I was delighted to have no Goren family drama. Phew. In the entire episode, my absolute favorite moment, the moment that rang the most true to me was Eames reading Goren the riot act at the end. Truly, AMEN. Good for her. I've found Eames somewhat unpleasant, cold, and angry the past year or so, and I was so relieved to see her just spill it all out and be open and honest. Also, when Goren comes out of the cell and she realizes he's been undercover without her knowledge the look on her face just oozed with hurt and disbelief....I felt incredibly pained for her at that moment. So I guess for me this episode ended up being all about Eames, I found Erbe's acting the most riveting, and Eames' words to be the most truthful and profound and MUCH NEEDED.
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Post by ragincajun on Jun 9, 2008 15:09:31 GMT -5
Here are some of my thoughts. 1.Goren's car appeared to be a Mid 60s Malibu SS convertible. 2. I think Goren was focused on getting his badge back, and following orders to the "T" and Eames should realize that, he already tainted her record from the Tate's thing, but really I don't think he was worried about her safety, All Goren appears to have is his job, His Mom is gone, he has disowned his brother, his nephew has disappeared, all he has is his job, and he has to follow the Captains and Chief's rules to get it back. Also I feel Goren is anti-social at this point, and like most men don't get the emotional part women feel and easily can dismiss it, and I am sure Eames gets pissed at that. ( I am not a shipper) 3. This part makes no sense to me, the Gun scene, the kid had a wire, Eames and new partner were listening, Didn't they hear Goren's Voice? And why did it take them so long to get in there when the wire was discovered? Where were they? Luckily they didn't shoot him out right, cause he would have been dead! Also, I don't think any cop would shoot anyone when they have an informant being held with a gun to his head, when Eames first busted in, Goren had the Gun to the informants head, I wish they would have showed us how that scene played out, instead of going to a commercial. 4. I also wonder since the Buddy Boy system came up when Eames talked to the female officer, if Eames was angry cause she felt left out cause she was a woman, or as someone mentioned on another board, she was just so shook up from the emotions of having to pull a gun on her partner her worry, and sadness turned to anger, the analogy of when your child gets hurt doing something crazy first you worry and cry then when you find out they are ok, you start to yell at them. 5. Maybe the chief of D's is corrupt, look at CIS, and many shows have copied each other. 6. I hope they keep the cute blond sitting behind Goren, now there is a shipping prospect,
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