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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 22:02:27 GMT -5
I found Copa's physical attack on Goren upsetting, especially seeing Goren's passive attitude. He should have defended himself physically, or at the least yelled back. This wimpy behavior is bothersome. I know he's hurting emotionally, but Goren needed to employ his very effective arm twisting trick. I think Goren handled it the best way possible under the circumstances. He was clearly outnumbered. The cops there with Copa would have rallied to Copa's defense no matter what. Goren would have their word against his as to who was at fault. No way to behave while on suspension and the shrink reporting that you have anger issues.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 9, 2008 22:06:30 GMT -5
Perhaps it was not so much that he wanted to return to the NYPD as he wanted to work with Eames? (You may take this in a shippy or nonshippy way.) Patcat It sounds like it went both ways, right up until she realized that she'd been kept out of the loop. It will be interesting to watch the fallout from that huge gaffe on the part of the boys club. We'll know they're back on track when she lobs a one-liner on him as in days of old. Let's hope she doesn't freeze him out for too long! And Ross must be in heaven to have Goren toe the line!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 22:19:46 GMT -5
Well, I've read everyone's posts and listened to the interview with the writer, Siobhan O'Connor and I am so happy and excited we have a new episode to talk about! And one that is so controversial! It was a difficult day to concentrate at work today, thinking about this show. So much to savor! Robert in the neighborhood bar (Donna - have you figured out his neighborhood yet?) having a beer and tormenting himself with flashbacks of "Heaven" while he's now in "Purgatory" - it is so hard to let go of bad memories! Even through all this bullsh*t with Copa, and meeting Stoats, and seeing the gun in the newspaper, he is still on his toes about it possibly being a setup. I like that. We do see Robert express more fear than ever in this episode - fear of being set up, fear of bodily harm, fear of losing his partner for good, fear of what's going to happen next, but I believe the fact that he continues his quest to get his job back by allowing himself to be thrown into such a dangerous undercover assignment proves his incredible bravery. Isn't bravery facing one's fears and relying on one's skills and instincts to get one through the storm? It did take bravery for him to accept the assignment but I think the foremost reason was that he felt he had no choice in the matter. He tried to offer up other possible undercover people but was told they weren't available. That the Chief of Ds expressly chose him. I think he felt pushed into it and thought perhaps this would be a way, the only way, to regain his job/badge/self. I think he was functioning well under the circumstances but knowing that Eames was out of the loop and did not have his back. He was totally dependant on Ross. He knew not to depend on the higher ups (he felt he was being set up at the beginning). I think it was an act of desperation on his part. "I'm in hole" was his perspective of his suspension situation. The undercover details left him feeling even more isolated and vulnerable. He had to be wary of the bad guys and also the bad guys in uniforms. He had to play by the rules while no one else did.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 9, 2008 23:01:57 GMT -5
And Ross must be in heaven to have Goren toe the line! I get the feeling that Ross has come to appreciate the Goren/Eames team. For all the headaches Goren has caused Ross, Goren is still very much a case solver. Ross is only as good as the detectives he has under him. In TWAH the father of the victim makes a sarcastic remark "this is your best" meaning Goren/Eames being the best case solvers. Ross really didn't respond but evidently he did recommend them for that particular case involving the Police Commission's missing daughter. He certainly would not have sent in his second stringers for it. Ross has come around to see Goren's worth. He still sees him as a problem child but knows he has an excellent detective.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 3:06:16 GMT -5
I wonder if Ross might mediate between Eames and Bobby G.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 10, 2008 5:28:46 GMT -5
Well, I've read everyone's posts and listened to the interview with the writer, Siobhan O'Connor and I am so happy and excited we have a new episode to talk about! And one that is so controversial! It was a difficult day to concentrate at work today, thinking about this show. So much to savor! Robert in the neighborhood bar (Donna - have you figured out his neighborhood yet?) having a beer and tormenting himself with flashbacks of "Heaven" while he's now in "Purgatory" - it is so hard to let go of bad memories! Even through all this bullsh*t with Copa, and meeting Stoats, and seeing the gun in the newspaper, he is still on his toes about it possibly being a setup. I like that. We do see Robert express more fear than ever in this episode - fear of being set up, fear of bodily harm, fear of losing his partner for good, fear of what's going to happen next, but I believe the fact that he continues his quest to get his job back by allowing himself to be thrown into such a dangerous undercover assignment proves his incredible bravery. Isn't bravery facing one's fears and relying on one's skills and instincts to get one through the storm? It did take bravery for him to accept the assignment but I think the foremost reason was that he felt he had no choice in the matter. He tried to offer up other possible undercover people but was told they weren't available. That the Chief of Ds expressly chose him. I think he felt pushed into it and thought perhaps this would be a way, the only way, to regain his job/badge/self. I think he was functioning well under the circumstances but knowing that Eames was out of the loop and did not have his back. He was totally dependant on Ross. He knew not to depend on the higher ups (he felt he was being set up at the beginning). I think it was an act of desperation on his part. "I'm in hole" was his perspective of his suspension situation. The undercover details left him feeling even more isolated and vulnerable. He had to be wary of the bad guys and also the bad guys in uniforms. He had to play by the rules while no one else did. I believe part of being brave is stepping up to the plate in times of desperation. His desperation and fear were the driving forces behind the acts of bravery, but most real heroes aren't looking to be courageous. I love your comment on how he "had to play by the rules, when no one else did". And, as with any choice, there are consequences. He will now have to deal with what that choice did to his relationship with Eames.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 10, 2008 5:44:18 GMT -5
Siobhan Byrne-O'Connor's comments up on USA are a great window on how this relationship is. Siobhan's comments really help clarify the dynamics between Goren & Eames during "Purgatory." Here is the link: Episode Commentary of PurgatoryI found Copa's physical attack on Goren upsetting, especially seeing Goren's passive attitude. He should have defended himself physically, or at the least yelled back. This wimpy behavior is bothersome. I know he's hurting emotionally, but Goren needed to employ his very effective arm twisting trick. I don't think he was being wimpy...just smart. We KNOW he could have beat the crap out of Copa, and Lord knows Copa deserves it, but hasn't Robert's physical violence this past season been somewhat unsettling? Choosing not to be violent seems more in character for Robert, especially since his main goal has been to get his badge back.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 10, 2008 7:52:34 GMT -5
Any cops' support of Copa completely baffles me. The man left his partner in a vulnerable situation so he could **** his girlfriend. (And this after talking about his kid...Good Grief...). The only thing I can think is that the real truth about what happened that night hasn't become general knowledge.
A question for everyone--Are all of Bobby's wounds self-inflicted? He didn't ask for the bad fathers, the self-absobed mentor and his murderous daughter, the addict brother and the mentally ill mother, and the troubled nephew. Yes, he should've reached out to Eames, and I'm sure Bobby Goren would be the first person to acknowledge a person is responsible for his/her actions. But are all his wounds self-inflicted?
Patcat
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 10, 2008 8:05:40 GMT -5
I do not believe all of his wounds are self-inflicted. It was a cutting remark but maybe it was her way of telling him to stop whinning and wallowing in self-pity. Snap out of it!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 10, 2008 8:09:21 GMT -5
No one has mentioned the physical change in VDO's Goren as the hour progressed. Other than the suit & shave at the end, I didn't see all that much of a physical change, summerfield. Did you? Please, please elaborate. I've only seen the entire episode once & wasn't looking for a progression. He just looked tired & on edge throughout. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 10, 2008 8:42:09 GMT -5
I've only watched it once myself. I thought I saw something or maybe I was imagining things. Off to view again.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 9:05:35 GMT -5
I think that Eames must mean that the wounds of S6-S7, notably the Tates jaunt, were self-inflicted. She would know better than anyone the outcome of Goren's childhood.
Honestly, I think that adults in an adult relationship will say things in anger that come across as very harsh. I do not believe that Eames has ever been callous to Goren, even though she tends to be truthful with him (she put her self on the line in "Untethered," let's not forget.)
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Post by Patcat on Jun 10, 2008 9:38:55 GMT -5
I agree that the Tates wounds were self-inflicted. And if Eames really wanted to do damage to Goren, she would've brought up her ordeal at the hands of Jo Gage.
Patcat
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 10, 2008 10:04:27 GMT -5
Well after viewing it again, there was just a brief improvement from the very beginning where he just looked like hell to near the end where he looked a little less rumpled.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 10, 2008 10:19:44 GMT -5
I wonder if Ross might mediate between Eames and Bobby G. I'm not sure Ross really wants to know what goes on between the two of them! or cares, as long as his well-oiled team is doing their job. But then, perhaps the team is not so well-oiled right now....(the personal issues may effect the professional) Only the next epi will tell. I'm not sure Ross' mediation would be welcomed by E/G. My impression is, that behind his back, they've exchanged a lot of glances, raised eyebrows, spread arms and shrugs. Ross is not on their wavelength. Ross is used as their last resort - although he certainly stepped up to the plate in Untethered (he was Eames last official resort in saving Goren - what would she have done if he hadn't stepped up?). Which leads me to thinking there are 2 clubs functioning here. The boys club and the G/E club. Poor Bobby - right now he's not in either!! Now remember, my observations are of someone who hasn't seen Purgatory. (48ish hours to Purgatory in Canada - er, that didn't sound right, but you all get my drift!)
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