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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 11:44:53 GMT -5
A question for everyone--Are all of Bobby's wounds self-inflicted? Patcat Agreed Goren has had a bad start in life. That set the stage for some of his bad choices in adult life. He knows he has father issues and authority issues but that didn't stop him from letting that get to him when he went after Croyden. There have been other examples over the span of the episodes Croyden is merely one. Sometimes he uses his bad start in life to his advantage. Sometimes he seems blind to how those early problems are impacting a case and/or his judgment. All in all I have to vote for his wounds being self inflicted. As to Copa......I would have thought he would have had some jail time considering he abandoned his post for a sexual encounter with a groupie and as a result his partner was shot and killed. He then lied during the investigation. He lied about where he was, what he was doing and what he saw. He implicated an innocent man as the killer. Granted the innocent man was a thug but he was innocent of the cop killing. Copa had a physical impairment to a such a degree that he was a danger to himself and his fellow officers yet he continued to operate on the front line. He put everyone around him at serious risk. so you have dereliction of duty, impeding an investigation and whatever else goes with the rest of it. If it had gone to court Copa would have been lying on the stand committing perjury to send the innocent thug to jail and perhaps a death penalty. Yeah, Copa should have lost his pension, his job and spent some time in jail for his actions. Yet the boys in blue circled the wagons and took up his cause. It is not a boys club.....it is a pack, with a pack mentality.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 13:00:21 GMT -5
I've only watched it once myself. I thought I saw something or maybe I was imagining things. Off to view again. In the first shot of him sitting alone at the bar, he looked ROUGH! Almost homeless looking. It looked as if he had just rolled out of bed after a hard night of drinking and threw on the same clothes and started the drinking all over again. Perhaps that was what he had been doing throughout the suspension. Such a difference from the well dressed/groomed professional man we saw in previous seasons.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 10, 2008 13:10:19 GMT -5
I have to say that I think the plot of PURGATORY hangs together better than the plots of AMENDS or UNTETHERED. The motivation behind Stoats' slide into being a bad cop (coupled with Dean Winters' very good performance) was very well done.
Patcat
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Post by lisianthus on Jun 10, 2008 13:12:39 GMT -5
I've only seen it once, so...
I think there is over-reacting to the CoD at the end. The envelope had two or three items in it. I wouldn't have expected him to fish out and hand Goren each one. Emptying the envelope on the table all at once was fine.
As for not telling Eames....it's all Ross's fault.
I could maybe see not telling her he *is* working, but to not mention it when she caught the other side of it?
And sorry, but he sent in a whole SWAT team and detectives into a room guns drawn and didn't mention to the team there was an undercover cop in there? That never should have happened.
There was no reason not to tell her at that point, other then continuing drama for the characters.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 13:26:59 GMT -5
Ross was under strict orders not to reveal the undercover operation to anyone. That's probably why he was secretly meeting Goren at the shrink's office. Considering Ross already had a bad boy comment in his personnel file because of his involvement in the Tates fiasco, I can understand his following the Chief of Ds orders. Even Goren followed those orders. I think Eames should have been kept in the loop but I don't believe Ross had much to say about how it was to play out.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Jun 10, 2008 13:50:08 GMT -5
meh, it was just ok. Not great, but not as bad as some of the latest offerings. I know I'm in a distinct minority, but I'd like them to break up the G/E partnership. It would be far more interesting to see them working with other people.
Screwup alert: It is very clear in mothership cannon that Olivet is not an MD. She states her qualifications in several epis as being PhD and states specififcally on at least one occasion that she does not have prescription authority. The bald guy (that is now on the female cop show on TNT) was an MD, and in one epi they had a spat in McCoy's office about the fact that he effectively "outranked" her. Jesus, if I can remember this stuff, you would expect the poele who do it for a living to remember and stick to facts already set forth.
I am sure Copa was calling Goren "rat" in the opening bar scene, not Stotes.
Weird to have someone refer to Goren and Stotes as "two big white guys." Stotes is scrawny little thing.
I didn't and don't understand Gorens response to "No drinking." He said "I can't do that...." What, he can't not drink? Was the red bulbous nose ala WC Fields supposed to indicate he has become a drunk? That isn't really believable or necessary.
6 months w/o pay? We know from canon he is a paycheck to paycheck guy. How are we to suppose he is paying his bills?
I thought Eames was over the top, acting like the stereotypical "girl" she tries not to be. She had no business knowing about any of it and her hissy fit seemed out of character and foolish. She has plenty of legitimate reasons to be pissed at Goren. Or was that the point? That she made a moutain out of this molehill b/c she has been supressing rage for a long time?
I dunno, it was just so contrived. On a bright note, we didn't have to put up with more family nonsense.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 14:27:47 GMT -5
Maybe not, but to her being kept in the dark by Ross and Goren represented the "old buddy boy" system she hates so much.
I took "I can't do that" to mean he couldn't go undercover.
Good save about Olivet: I too dislike it when they get those details wrong.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 14:30:10 GMT -5
This is a very good point. It explains plenty of how they were acting, IMHO.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 14:32:24 GMT -5
I didn't and don't understand Gorens response to "No drinking." He said "I can't do that...." What, he can't not drink? Was the red bulbous nose ala WC Fields supposed to indicate he has become a drunk? That isn't really believable or necessary. Perhaps the writers were attempting to show the depths he had sunk to during the suspension. Alcohol was his drug of choise to deal with all that had happened to him. Sitting night after night on a barstool, alone and depressed drowning his demons was what he had come to. Now that he was being thrust back into an undercover assignment, he couldn't simply stop cold turkey. Perhaps alcohol was his partner now.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 14:34:16 GMT -5
I have this thing about putting things in people's hands as a courtesy. I think it's from having worked a cash!
Or just didn't mention it was Bobby G?
Yeah. How convincing do others here think that is? Is it a useful mechanism to get the Eames-Goren partnership out in the open, or does it feel more contrived, to create drama? I am incliined to take the show on trust, at least until I see what happens next.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 14:35:37 GMT -5
As I hit post another thought rattled around in my head.....
Sitting on a barstool swilling beer would account for the weight gain.
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Post by deathroe on Jun 10, 2008 14:42:44 GMT -5
Drawing on what others have said, why does Goren react differently now to things than he used to?
(1) His mother's death? People suffering bereavement can act very irrationally.
(2) Difficulties with Eames? Fear of losing her? Love #$&*#$(s people up (not necessarily romantic love. Eames is clearly very imprtant to him, and he may think even at the start of the episode that she has rejected him.)
(3) Just a general sense of mortality, now that he is older? A lot of people go through that. Or a bad phase? Being rejected by a group or by a person in any sense can force a person to go through a real sea change. It might not be what we like, if we like snappy! bBobby of S1-4, but it does seem more true to human life.
(4) I think things like "The War at Home" show a general anxiety toward the times. None of the franchise shows, you may have noticed, are as rational as they used to be. CI starts getting really dark around S4, and if you ask me, it's never bounced back any more than SVU has. I still really enjoy the shows; this simply strikes me as the case.
So, which of these do we want to privilege? All of the above?
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 14:52:57 GMT -5
I didn't and don't understand Gorens r 6 months w/o pay? We know from canon he is a paycheck to paycheck guy. How are we to suppose he is paying his bills? Maybe that was one of the reasons why they (higher ups) gave him a whopping 6 months suspension. Hoping to break him financially so that he would be forced to A-take a security job with a mobster and get into trouble with that mess or B-leave the force and find employment elsewhere as a security consultant etc.. Just one more way to weaken and destroy him then they would be rid of him.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 10, 2008 15:16:16 GMT -5
I believe part of being brave is stepping up to the plate in times of desperation. His desperation and fear were the driving forces behind the acts of bravery, but most real heroes aren't looking to be courageous. I love your comment on how he "had to play by the rules, when no one else did". And, as with any choice, there are consequences. He will now have to deal with what that choice did to his relationship with Eames. Well put, Susan 1212 -- as always. BTW, hello everyone -- what an episode. Eames finally gets her own aria and what a beautiful, theatrically real moment it was. "Your wounds are self-inflicted." What an unexpected punch of truth that had. On to reading everybody's comments before I post more of my own -- AL
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 10, 2008 15:24:46 GMT -5
Drawing on what others have said, why does Goren react differently now to things than he used to? (1) His mother's death? People suffering bereavement can act very irrationally. (2) Difficulties with Eames? Fear of losing her? Love #$&*#$(s people up (not necessarily romantic love. Eames is clearly very imprtant to her, and he may think even at the start of the episode that she has rejected him.) (3) Just a general sense of mortality, now that he is older? A lot of people go through that. Or a bad phase? Being rejected by a group or by a person in any sense can force a person to go through a real sea change. It might not be what we like, if we like snappy! bBobby of S1-4, but it does seem more true to human life. (4) I think things like "The War at Home" show a general anxiety toward the times. None of the franchise shows, you may have noticed, are as rational as they used to be. CI starts getting really dark around S4, and if you ask me, it's never bounced back any more than SVU has. I still really enjoy the shows; this simply strikes me as the case. So, which of these do we want to privilege? All of the above? Deathroe..... It could be all of the above. If he had only one issue to deal with, it wouldn't have had the effect all of these incidents have had. The accumulation of this pile of emotional angst mounting up wore him down. There was nothing left to handle the problems. Each and every trial took its toll on him until finally there was nothing left no cushion or pad to protect the raw inner self. These things left him bloody and reeling unable to rebound and using poor judgment when a choice had to be made. Kind of like.....you can handle this or you can handle that, but you can't handle it all.
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