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Post by quietfireca on Jul 8, 2008 11:09:21 GMT -5
My fear is that the spiral will continue downward, until all that is left is a broken, weary man, older than his age. Oh, now there is a depressing thought, DonnaJo. They better not do that if they want me to watch this show forever in syndicated reruns!! (for instance, Magnum PI: because of the way they ended that series, I can't watch any of the episodes anymore - and I know I'm not alone!)
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Post by Patcat on Jul 8, 2008 11:36:32 GMT -5
Actually, the whydunnit with quirky cop has existed in mystery fiction for a long time. Some of the Sherlock Holmes (who, I argue, is the source for every detective) stories have at least elements of whydunnits. I can't remember what author said it, but there's a statement that there's only a few basic stories. What makes them different is character and execution. And I think all of Goren's confrontations have been interesting variations on the same basic theme. The one in PHANTOM (the first I can recall and maybe the best)introduced the audience to Goren's strengths and weaknesses and his passion to protect people. In SIREN CALL both he and Eames are off balance and shaky, and other aspects of his character--particularly his vulnerability--appeared. And in PLEASE NOTE, the audience got to see Goren and Eames back in sync. In all of these confrontations, what's consistent is Goren's essential goodness, his desire to protect others. And while he may be depressed, he's not suicidal. I'm not sure it's heroic to place yourself in danger to save others if you don't care if you live or die. Goren may have difficulties with his life, but he still wants to live. His desire to continue to work and help others is, for me, heroic.
I could be whistling in the dark, but I find these variations interesting. Mr. D'Onofrio's quiet, subtle performance is much more interesting to me than Mel Gibson's screaming in the LETHAL WEAPON films, for example.
I do wish Goren would let himself get angry, especially at the Department. Maybe he realistically can't. But I'd like to see a scene where he lists everything he's done over the years and wonder why the Department can't treat him with some of the respect a rat like Copa seems to be getting.
Patcat
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jul 8, 2008 13:20:53 GMT -5
...New writers would be worst, as they don't know the characters back stories & classic Goren would really get lost, IMO. Not necessarily, DJ. What about fresh writers with solid resumes who also happen to be fans of CI? (I'm thinking of Kathy McCormick who was honcho at "Crossing Jordan" -- which I've lately started watching for the first time. Very creative storylines and strong characters, along with a few series' innovations.) DB talks about Voice and about Will. You respond And he seems to be doing just that. Not good. Here's why (and you may remember this): In a McGill alumni newsletter, while still CI showrunner, Rene Balcer once described any actor's internal monologue upon reading a script: "Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, my lines, bullshit." So give me a fresh, hands-on, creative, enthusiastic new showrunner (a condition analogous to the character Goren in his debut year, though either sex) and I'll bet the beach house we won't have to worry about VDO getting the chance to play Goren in a (Wow I need oxygen) ;-) AL
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 8, 2008 16:49:11 GMT -5
Eames looks down at Goren, and Goren looks up at Eames, then back to his file and....there it is! The old Bobby grin. Oh, how I adored that moment! I confess to rewinding that scene just to catch that cute grin a second time. So nice to see him smile again. I've really missed it!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 8, 2008 17:03:38 GMT -5
Marla's husband was strikingly absent, wasn't he? He was very nearly a non-entity. What we did see of him suggested he wasn't any help to Marla and pretty much tied to Mommy by the proverbial apron strings.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 8, 2008 17:09:06 GMT -5
Actually, the whydunnit with quirky cop has existed in mystery fiction for a long time. Some of the Sherlock Holmes (who, I argue, is the source for every detective) stories have at least elements of whydunnits. I can't remember what author said it, but there's a statement that there's only a few basic stories. What makes them different is character and execution. And I think all of Goren's confrontations have been interesting variations on the same basic theme. The one in PHANTOM (the first I can recall and maybe the best)introduced the audience to Goren's strengths and weaknesses and his passion to protect people. In SIREN CALL both he and Eames are off balance and shaky, and other aspects of his character--particularly his vulnerability--appeared. And in PLEASE NOTE, the audience got to see Goren and Eames back in sync. In all of these confrontations, what's consistent is Goren's essential goodness, his desire to protect others. And while he may be depressed, he's not suicidal. I'm not sure it's heroic to place yourself in danger to save others if you don't care if you live or die. Goren may have difficulties with his life, but he still wants to live. His desire to continue to work and help others is, for me, heroic. I could be whistling in the dark, but I find these variations interesting. Mr. D'Onofrio's quiet, subtle performance is much more interesting to me than Mel Gibson's screaming in the LETHAL WEAPON films, for example. I do wish Goren would let himself get angry, especially at the Department. Maybe he realistically can't. But I'd like to see a scene where he lists everything he's done over the years and wonder why the Department can't treat him with some of the respect a rat like Copa seems to be getting. Patcat I, too, would like to see something like that. Like a moment between Bobby and Alex, where they have some sort of exchange a la the bar scene in "Albatross". It'd be realistic to have him venting to his partner about feeling unappreciated. And it might give Alex an opportunity to reach him for a change. Lord knows, she keeps trying!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 8, 2008 19:07:22 GMT -5
My fear is that the spiral will continue downward, until all that is left is a broken, weary man, older than his age. Oh, now there is a depressing thought, DonnaJo. They better not do that if they want me to watch this show forever in syndicated reruns!! (for instance, Magnum PI: because of the way they ended that series, I can't watch any of the episodes anymore - and I know I'm not alone!) I watched Magnum a little here and there and I always wondered how it ended. Could you please let me know?
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 8, 2008 21:26:32 GMT -5
Marla's husband was strikingly absent, wasn't he? Emasculated and living the life mommy dearest planned for him with the exception of his "trailer park" wife.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 8, 2008 21:36:57 GMT -5
I do wish Goren would let himself get angry, especially at the Department. Maybe he realistically can't. But I'd like to see a scene where he lists everything he's done over the years and wonder why the Department can't treat him with some of the respect a rat like Copa seems to be getting. Patcat That would be nice to watch. Very satisfying on many levels. I doubt it will happen. Goren, I believe, has come to see that over the years what he has done job wise has not endeared him to his fellow boys in blue. The higher ups aren't particularly fond of him either. Goren is more of a loner not a pack member. In Amends he knew to wait at the car while Eames went in to pay her respects. He knew his presence would be disruptive and make an unpleasant affair even more so. I think Goren has come to accept his being an outsider. In a way it frees him. In a way it traps him. He knows he will never be accepted by the others and so he deals with it by just doing what he has always done.....catch bad guys and pursue the truth.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 8, 2008 21:52:56 GMT -5
Heh--very astute. Kind of like the addict in "Smothered" and his fiance, way back when ... do any other emasculated fathers spring to mind?
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Post by deathroe on Jul 8, 2008 22:00:02 GMT -5
A question occurs to me: is this isolation, this difference from others, why most of us find Goren the character relatable or interesting? Or OTOH do we find him relatable or interesting because he is like all of us in being somewhat isolated, somewhat of a bumbler, especially now? Personally, I always joke that I'm more of a Goren, but I want to be more of an Eames--but I think that all of us find characteristics of both protagonists in ourselves
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 8, 2008 22:12:59 GMT -5
A question occurs to me: is this isolation, this difference from others, why most of us find Goren the character relatable or interesting? Or OTOH do we find him relatable or interesting because he is like all of us in being somewhat isolated, somewhat of a bumbler, especially now? Personally, I always joke that I'm more of a Goren, but I want to be more of an Eames--but I think that all of us find characteristics of both protagonists in ourselves Holy smokes, Deathroe! It'll take me all night to compose a reply to this! Great questions!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 8, 2008 22:31:01 GMT -5
A question occurs to me: is this isolation, this difference from others, why most of us find Goren the character relatable or interesting? Or OTOH do we find him relatable or interesting because he is like all of us in being somewhat isolated, somewhat of a bumbler, especially now? Personally, I always joke that I'm more of a Goren, but I want to be more of an Eames--but I think that all of us find characteristics of both protagonists in ourselves I definitely relate to Bobby on the misfit level. I've been a misfit for as long as I can remember. Only time I fit in is when I find other misfits to hang out with. LOL!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 8, 2008 22:34:22 GMT -5
I, too, would like to see something like that. Like a moment between Bobby and Alex, where they have some sort of exchange a la the bar scene in "Albatross". It'd be realistic to have him venting to his partner about feeling unappreciated. And it might give Alex an opportunity to reach him for a change. Lord knows, she keeps trying! I think sometime soon, Alex needs to tell him just how good he is at his job. He's got to feel the ostracism of his collegues acutely. Now more than ever since the rat. The rat in the drawer took the ostracism to a whole new level. It was like a written message. I agree with whoever said he won't ever vent - has he ever vented about anything? (We sure know she *finally* has!) Everyone needs to be heard and validated. As things warm back up between the two and reason returns, it's time for him to get a pat on the back (it really annoyed me when Stoats was telling Bobby what a good cop he himself was - I was practically yelling at Stoats to look who he was talking to!). Alex is the only person who can give him that pat and that he'd trust to speak honestly (ahem, we know she can do that!). Deakins and Carver gave him those pats often (when the weren't reining him in!) just by trusting his instincts and letting him run with them. Mind you, if he thinks Alex is about to speak her mind again, he might run for the hills, anticipating another "scolding"!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 9, 2008 5:59:03 GMT -5
Marla's husband was strikingly absent, wasn't he? Emasculated and living the life mommy dearest planned for him with the exception of his "trailer park" wife. First of all, I do remember Balcer's comment about actors & there attitude about their own lines, Annabelle. Thanks for the reminder - too funny & too true, I bet. ;D Do you think VDO can be reined in, at this point? He has been given creative license with his character for years now. Maybe he needs a sit down (or time out) with Dick Wolf before the new show runner takes over. Diab, I've been thinking about Marla & her situation with Monster-In-Law and Hubby. She should have put her foot down, and insisted that they move out of Mom's house, for starters. Murder as a solution isn't typical for a small town dancer. Once again, I wish we had a bit of Marla's back story to firm up the "why" of her actions. The lack of such takes away from the reality of the story.
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