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Post by dragonsback on Jul 9, 2008 17:55:47 GMT -5
Outsider, misfit, loner. No question about it, that's Goren Mark II. Wasn't Goren Mark I, IMO.
What we were informed early on: Goren was in on a regular poker game (male bonding); Goren had at least one smart, sharp-looking serious girlfriend (he had his chance, as Irene reminds him); Goren has any number of friends outside MCS (petrol heads, rabbis)
Most of all, Goren does NOT like to fly solo - he's so attached at the hip to Eames that he throws a mini-snit (balled up paper) when she's away. His symbiotic, asexual relationship with Eames is meta-male bonding. A Lenny-Mikey thing.
Heroic? Not in the sense of valor or sacrifice. He wasn't ever protective (that I could see) on a gender basis. How many women has he mentally unpeeled or simply sliced to shreds? . He was kind to children - well, that's kind of normal in our society - and he still maniputavely drilled for oil in their little brains. He was invariably kind to, and protective of, street people - then again, he was out for information. Give people what they need, and how smart is that, to show the despised poor a little kindness and respect if you want to get info?
He generally despised the greedy, empathised with the needy. Well, not all the needy (empathy with the cannibalistic serial killer, dsigust for coke-bottle fetishist serial killer. Well, wouldn't we all say ewwwww to the latter?
The Sherlock thing. The truth was a nice trophy, but it was the Game itself that he excelled at, revelled in , playing people in gentle and not-so-gentle ways.
To me, what made Goren stand out in the crowd (but rarely apart from it) had nothing to do with being a woiunded Lone Wolf, or particular heroism, or shining moral virtue, but his acumen and his instincts and his sensationally seductive ability to Play. Not normal, exceptional. And sexy.
Now, of course, he is just normal. Depressed, unilluminated, nothing much to say, physically maladroit (not slyly dissembling with those old tactical bumbles and fumbles) and isolated. Your average neurotic. Nothing special.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 18:13:18 GMT -5
The Sherlock thing. The truth was a nice trophy, but it was the Game itself that he excelled at, revelled in , playing people in gentle and not-so-gentle ways. Wow! when I grow up I want to write like you! (and a whole bunch of others on this list - you guys are amazing!) I was thinking there wasn't much more to say, but I made a note (ya, ya, gimme a break) last night when I reviewed some of the episode and there was a definite spark when Goren suggested to Ross they were after a hunter. So the interest in the chase is not squelched. Unfortunately, the writers made sure there was no opportunity for dangling the suspect between his claws and playing The Game! Darn them!
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Post by deathroe on Jul 9, 2008 18:15:16 GMT -5
"Missed" his chance. The only person we know for sure he dated is Lola ("You ate hairballs for her?").
Interesting. I myself do not see Eames as being masculine enough for that analogy to work. They are more complementary, equal partners or on occasion equally-matched sparring partners--whereas Mothership Mikey was always the junior partner.
Otoh he will point out to women in the context of interrogation that their SOs or male opposite numbers are letting them down.
This to me was his MOST attractive trait.
I do not see Goren being exposed as normal and human as a problem. I think that D'Onofrio makes it interesting. However, it does discourage me that he is (or seems) more self-involved than he previously was.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 18:47:47 GMT -5
I do not see Goren being exposed as normal and human as a problem. I think that D'Onofrio makes it interesting. However, it does discourage me that he is (or seems) more self-involved than he previously was. He needs someone else's crisis to jolt him out of his self-involvement. Oh and we know there is only one person that's close enough to jolt him. Oh, great. The writers better not take aim at Eames now. Can you tell I'm procrastinating about getting some work done?...
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 19:19:33 GMT -5
"Missed" his chance. The only person we know for sure he dated is Lola ("You ate hairballs for her?"). Interesting. I myself do not see Eames as being masculine enough for that analogy to work. They are more complementary, equal partners or on occasion equally-matched sparring partners--whereas Mothership Mikey was always the junior partner. Otoh he will point out to women in the context of interrogation that their SOs or male opposite numbers are letting them down. This to me was his MOST attractive trait. I do not see Goren being exposed as normal and human as a problem. I think that D'Onofrio makes it interesting. However, it does discourage me that he is (or seems) more self-involved than he previously was. Didn't he have a little something going on with the Chief of Ds secretary (Denise)? He and Eames were trying to ferret out the info leak in Badge and Goren offered up that he could vouch for Denise's whereabouts on a particular night/morning. Then there was the girl who was a muslim I believe and Goren became knowledgeable about the Koran to impress her.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 9, 2008 19:30:47 GMT -5
That's right, Diablo. But we don't know which ones were girlfriends per se!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 19:34:16 GMT -5
Most of all, Goren does NOT like to fly solo - he's so attached at the hip to Eames that he throws a mini-snit (balled up paper) when she's away. His symbiotic, asexual relationship with Eames is meta-male bonding. A Lenny-Mikey thing. The paper throwing incident didn't seem to be so much that he was alone and not handling well, but that he was investigating a crime with a new and quite raw partner. He was out of sync and missed the familiar and comfortable Eames. It was Eames who made the remark that he didn't handle change well. When Eames was partnered with a new detective while Goren was on suspension she didn't seem to have the herky jerky that Goren had with Bishop. Perhaps it was because Eames' new partner was more seasoned than Bishop?
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 19:50:39 GMT -5
When Eames was partnered with a new detective while Goren was on suspension she didn't seem to have the herky jerky that Goren had with Bishop. Perhaps it was because Eames' new partner was more seasoned than Bishop? She didn't have any spark either. She was totally dragging and/or tense in Purgatory. Just going through the motions. Daniels was pretty easy-going, not stupid or irritating, just your standard detective and not a taste which needed acquiring (and no need to determine if he should he be worthy enough to acquire a taste for!).
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 19:58:06 GMT -5
She didn't have any spark either. She was totally dragging and/or tense in Purgatory. Just going through the motions. Daniels was pretty easy-going, not stupid or irritating, just your standard detective and not a taste which needed acquiring (and no need to determine if he should he be worthy enough to acquire a taste for!). The first episode I saw her in the first and only thing that came to mind was "wooden". And that stuck through the final episode with her.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 9, 2008 20:16:33 GMT -5
On the other hand, he referred to the panic one feels being separated from one's partner as "primal." The paper throwing incident is also referenced in "Silencers" (I can't watch it much either. It makes me SAD), and then in "Purgatory," Eames stares at Goren's desk. Subtle? Not really. Deeply rooted? Quite possibly. Ship, ship, ship
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Post by deathroe on Jul 9, 2008 20:18:10 GMT -5
Heh, I saw Eames as being fairly take-charge sans Goren. I guess different people see different things.
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Jul 9, 2008 20:20:47 GMT -5
I have 2 touchy, yet honest questions, so I am looking for honest answers (I would push it and ask for unbiased answers, but I never ask a type of question I couldn't answer myself):
On a character-wise perspective was the episode good, bad, as bad, equally bad, better or way better than last week Logan/Wheeler episode?
Same question on a story-wise perspective?
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 9, 2008 20:38:04 GMT -5
Heh, I saw Eames as being fairly take-charge sans Goren. I guess different people see different things. I agree, D-roe, she was take-charge, but no real spark, no one-liners. She was doing her job well and continued to take-charge (as she'd gotten used to doing) through Betrayed. But the melancholy was gone in Betrayed because she was still ticked at Goren. Better ticked than numb - things can only improve from uber-ticked.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 20:43:59 GMT -5
Heh, I saw Eames as being fairly take-charge sans Goren. I guess different people see different things. Eames was in her own element....Major Case. Her new temp partner seemed to understand that and didn't try to run the show with Eames. He flowed with her much better than Bishop did with Goren.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 9, 2008 20:47:24 GMT -5
On the other hand, he referred to the panic one feels being separated from one's partner as "primal." The paper throwing incident is also referenced in "Silencers" (I can't watch it much either. It makes me SAD), and then in "Purgatory," Eames stares at Goren's desk. Subtle? Not really. Deeply rooted? Quite possibly. Ship, ship, ship I think he would have preferred not having a partner than having a new temp like Bishop. It felt to me like he was either pushing or pulling when they were working together.
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