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Post by annabelleleigh on Aug 8, 2008 12:31:58 GMT -5
Patcat, you are quite right about Tessa's mother. I didn't mean to suggest that all of the adults portrayed in the episode were self-centered and irresponsible. In this case, she was the exception that proves the rule.
AL
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 8, 2008 16:07:59 GMT -5
Tessa's Mom was indeed the exception, ...except... I had a problem with her acceptance of the Internet boyfriend. OK, talking on line is fine. But as another poster here already brought up, you let your daughter go to her senior prom with a virtual stranger? Someone she met only once and you have never met? Not good. Tessa's Mom seemed too savvy in the way of wayward teens to be so naive.
Another problem I had with her was her rule of never giving out A's. Easy A's are bad, but to never, ever give an A, no matter what, just on principle, is wrong. I had professors like that in college, and they were smug & pretentious a$$holes.
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 8, 2008 17:44:33 GMT -5
Count me in as one who thought Tessa's mom was waaay too lenient about the internet boyfriend. Let your daughter go to the Prom with a boy she had only met in person once (and even Tessa didn't remember him, really)? No way! Uh-uh! As a teacher of high school age kids, Ms. Nobile should have known better than that.
The epiode was rather methodical, I thought, and didn't have a lot of zing, but I still liked it. I did not think that Jack was very convincing though. Should've cast someone with a little more life than that kid. He was acting the part like a guy who was trying very hard to walk the line between total psycho and run-of-the-mill bratty prep-school screw up. Neither one worked for me at all.
There were some interesting parallels, ie: family history of schizophrenia and the constant "I'm not going to rat out my friends" mantra. But the part I found most interesting was Paul's mother when she was talking to Bobby about her son's depression. She said that she wasn't worried about him slipping and that he didn't seem so depressed. Maybe a year ago, she said, but lately he'd seemed happier. I'm not sure of timelines anymore (dang I miss those black cards!), but if it was prom season, it's been very close to a year since Frances passed away. (I'm also guessing this is why he'll be at his mother's gravesite in "Frame") And if you watch Bobby's face here, you can see his feelings right there. Very subtle, but there.
I confess to thinking the beard is sexy, but I sure would like to see Bobby in different clothes. Get rid of that suit jacket unless he's going to wear a suit. You just don't wear jackets like that with casual button-down shirts and jeans!
Blue. . .he should be in blue, with a navy suit. Or the jeans and the black t-shirt, with another solid color over it the way he likes to wear them. But please (oh if only the wardrobe people are reading!) ditch the suit-jacket-with-jeans look. Better yet, let Tim Gunn have him for a few hours! Zowee! ;D
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Post by Patcat on Aug 8, 2008 21:36:02 GMT -5
The internet boyfriend--yea, Mrs. Nobile hadn't met the boy, but he and Tess were supposedly going to different schools, in different cities. At least Mrs. Nobile knew what her daughter was doing online.
As for her not giving out "As"--I took that to mean that she didn't give out a lot of As. If you were going to get one from her, it had to be because you worked and deserved it, not just because you showed up and your parents paid a lot of tuition.
Patcat
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Aug 8, 2008 22:12:14 GMT -5
Thank you Donna for your kind words. I definitely agree - there is more good in the world than bad. And yes, Robert is the epitome of goodness. While I truly appreciate your sentiments, S1212 -- you are one of my favorite writers on this site -- to my knowledge these questions are not so mysterious. In recent years there have been numerous studies of adolescent morality which I believe to be the heart of this story. I know of one 2004 study from the University of Australia, Sydney which provides a credible hypothesis that answers these questions. I don't expect anybody to read it, so here's the Cliff Notes version: Adolescents high in positive moral values are far more likely to be found in stable families in which both spouses are open and adaptable to societal changes and also honest and communicative with each other and their children. In short, it's really more about the parents than the kids. And I think that's where "Legacy" failed. Take out the Internet stuff -- Facebook and MySpace are simply new platforms for acting out -- and the story that emerges is one about the consequences of failed parenting. The mothership has addressed the topic of adolescent morality many times over the years and -- IMHO -- much more successfully. Those episodes offered characters and situations as complex as real humans are. "Legacy" -- and other episodes this season, also IMO -- presented two-dimensional stereotypes and, in this case, missed the point. The actual Horace Mann story -- and thanks again Random for providing the links -- is far more complicated, and has been portrayed much more as a product of the behavior of the adults involved. This rings true for me. I know that TV dramatists only get about 45 minutes to tell a story, but that's the gig. Brilliant talents can pull off a tough subject like this one, and do it consistently. "Legacy" did not spring from brilliance. AL P.S. Oh my I guess I'm fed up, but I'm also hopeful that creative team changes will step up the game in Season 8. Thank you, also, AL, for your kind words. But I am somewhat confused by your post. My questions were in regard to what makes a person go one way or the other when bad parenting is the common denominator. For example, Jack had bad parenting and decided to lie, be cruel to Tessa, hit Paul over the head, and ultimately kill him to try to get back at and get approval from his father. Robbie, in "Bright Boy" had bad parenting and decided all he wanted to do was to kill himself - until the police stepped in. And Robert Goren had bad parenting and turned out to be the embodiment of goodness - making it his job to put the bad guys away. My questions and comments were with regard to the fact that I believe our genes and our upbringing, Nature and Nurture, both are responsible for who we are. I believe it is obvious that children have a better chance at having good morals if they come from stable homes. That is not what I was referring to, and I am sorry if that wasn't made clear originally. It was my way of saying this show makes me think about things that other shows don't. The mother ship also does an excellent job of churning out great stories, but in my opinon, there are no other shows that come close. I know you are unhappy with LOCI, but I love it. I find it thought-provoking and curious. They may revisit a theme from time to time, but each visit is a different view, a different angle to see it from. And, for the record, I thoroughly enjoy the personal stories of my favorite detectives being revealed. It brings out opportunities for the actors to really show their stuff; and Erbe and D'Onofrio are fabulous!
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Post by annabelleleigh on Aug 11, 2008 17:28:54 GMT -5
Dear Susan1212 --
Since you are indeed one of my favorite writers on this site it was doubly dumb of me to barrel through your well thought out post.
By way of explanation (and apology) please understand that I had just finished reading the entire NY Magazine article on Horace Mann (thanks again for the link Random) and it pushed a lot of my hot buttons about adults who act selfishly and carelessly around impressionable young minds. So I galloped in at full steam -- and thus my response was unworthy (not to mention off-point). Forgive me?
AL
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Post by annabelleleigh on Aug 11, 2008 18:07:05 GMT -5
T...this show makes me think about things that other shows don't. The mother ship also does an excellent job of churning out great stories, but in my opinon, there are no other shows that come close. I know you are unhappy with LOCI, but I love it. I find it thought-provoking and curious.... It brings out opportunities for the actors to really show their stuff; and Erbe and D'Onofrio are fabulous! Now this I have read carefully, S1212, and want to respond directly. Yes, I am disappointed with CI these days. To me it has strayed far from Rene Balcer's fascinating concept, most especially with the character of Robert Goren. I don't know but I would guess that CI also has become disappointing to Balcer. A couple of years ago, before he regained the mothership's helm, he entered into a put pilot** deal with NBC for a new mystery/drama series focused on a character who is brilliant, bi-polar, part-detective, part medical examiner, and an intensely curious student of life and the world. (I'm paraphrasing somewhat). It was to be based on Dr. Park Dietz. Doesn't that sound awfully familiar? What I take from Balcer's attempted deal is that he was frustrated with CI. This series is his baby, and now it was morphing into something only barely recognizable. He wanted (perhaps) to begin again. I believe Balcer's original vehicle offers ample opportunities for actors to explore both the criminal mind and their characters. You can see that in the way the show evolved from "One" through Season 4. IMHO, Balcer's CI has far more potential than the current iteration to illuminate and entertain. Yet here it is, running well off the rails on its way to a ditch. (Harsh words, I know -- but I'm being honest here.) I have my theories about what happened after Balcer left (which I'll reserve for a more appropriate thread.) So yes, S1212, I'm unhappy with the show but just like you I also love it. Why else spend all this time hanging around CI-US? The fact that this series continues to engage the thinking of so many intelligent individuals says a great deal about the show at its core. That their posts have become more interesting than recent episodes -- to echo SarahIvy and others -- is, to me, a shame, a waste, and a mistake. I hope it will be rectified next season. AL ** A "put pilot" is sort of like an option for a pilot. If the contracting agency chooses not to make it, the producer gets a small kill fee. To my knowledge Rene Balcer's untitled pilot was never produced.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Aug 11, 2008 18:29:05 GMT -5
Dear Susan1212 -- Since you are indeed one of my favorite writers on this site it was doubly dumb of me to barrel through your well thought out post. By way of explanation (and apology) please understand that I had just finished reading the entire NY Magazine article on Horace Mann (thanks again for the link Random) and it pushed a lot of my hot buttons about adults who act selfishly and carelessly around impressionable young minds. So I galloped in at full steam -- and thus my response was unworthy (not to mention off-point). Forgive me? AL No need for forgiveness. It was just a misunderstanding. No problem.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Aug 11, 2008 19:26:05 GMT -5
T...this show makes me think about things that other shows don't. The mother ship also does an excellent job of churning out great stories, but in my opinon, there are no other shows that come close. I know you are unhappy with LOCI, but I love it. I find it thought-provoking and curious.... It brings out opportunities for the actors to really show their stuff; and Erbe and D'Onofrio are fabulous! Now this I have read carefully, S1212, and want to respond directly. Yes, I am disappointed with CI these days. To me it has strayed far from Rene Balcer's fascinating concept, most especially with the character of Robert Goren. I don't know but I would guess that CI has also has become disappointing to Balcer. A couple of years ago, before he regained the mothership's helm, he entered into a put pilot** deal with NBC for a new mystery/drama series focused on a character who is brilliant, bi-polar, part-detective, part medical examiner, and an intensely curious student of life and the world. (I'm paraphrasing somewhat). It was to be based on Dr. Park Dietz. Doesn't that sound awfully familiar? What I take from Balcer's attempted deal is that he was frustrated with CI. This series is his baby, and now it was morphing into something only barely recognizable. He wanted (perhaps) to begin again. I believe Balcer's original vehicle offers ample opportunities for actors to explore both the criminal mind and their characters. You can see that in the way the show evolved from "One" through Season 4. IMHO, Balcer's CI has far more potential than the current iteration to illuminate and entertain. Yet here it is, running well off the rails on its way to a ditch. (Harsh words, I know -- but I'm being honest here.) I have my theories about what happened after Balcer left (which I'll reserve for a more appropriate thread.) So yes, S1212, I'm unhappy with the show but just like you I also love it. Why else spend all this time hanging around CI-US? The fact that this series continues to engage the thinking of so many intelligent individuals says a great deal about the show at its core. That their posts have become more interesting than recent episodes -- to echo SarahIvy and others -- is, to me, a shame, a waste, and a mistake. I hope it will be rectified next season. AL ** A "put pilot" is sort of like an option for a pilot. If the contracting agency chooses not to make it, the producer gets a small kill fee. To my knowledge Rene Balcer's untitled pilot was never produced. Your unhappiness with/love for LOCI seems to be a paradox in itself! I, too, wonder what Balcer thinks about the changes in the show. I suspect he is happy with his own work on the show, and probably doesn't like the changes. But unless he speaks up, we will never really know for sure. But the changes, I believe, are inevitable with the changes in the writers. They all have their own ideas on what they want to say. Who knows what the new ones will want to delve into? I think we can be sure that with all the hits Goren and Eames have taken in their lives, they will never be able to go back to who they were. People change as they age and as life happens. These two are no exception. Their essences will hopefully always remain good, honest, and unwavering, allowing us to continue to root for them. The plots will change with the writers' interpretations of the headlines. Hopefully they will meet or exceed your expectations. Only time will tell.
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misty98
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 61
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Post by misty98 on Aug 11, 2008 20:48:57 GMT -5
Whoops! I started to post a "neighborhood watch" comment on in the wrong spot. Chalk it up to a long day! (LOL)
Okay...fixed it...Now that I'm here, though, I just wanted to weigh in and say that like some others, I was very surprised that Tessa's mother was accepting of Tessa having an "Internet boyfriend." As I've mentioned in other posts, I do a lot of work in the civil arena in cases involving sexual misconduct, and I can tell you that from what I've seen, there is A LOT of "hooking up" going on in cyberspace. What kids don't seem to realize is that (a) anyone can be anyone in cyberspace and (b) whatever you post on the Internet is typically available for anyone to see. I can't tell you how many cases we've had where the alleged victim of sexual misconduct has posted sexually explicit photos of herself on the Internet...and Sweet Little Susie's parents just can't understand what went wrong. (((sigh)))
These days, I don't know how parents of teenagers sleep at night!
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Post by Patcat on Aug 12, 2008 8:17:32 GMT -5
I have friends who are the parents of an eleven and seven year old and they have trouble sleeping at night (g).
I'd argue (gently, of course(g)) that the show hasn't gone off the rails as much as it has gone down a sidetrack. I've found it an interesting journey--not always a completely satisfactory one, but interesting, largely because of Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe's acting. Some of the trip--ENDGAME and AMENDS, for example--has been excellent. Some of it--UNTETHERED, which had far too many plot holes in it and is worth watching only really for Mr. D'Onofrio's performances--has not been so good.
My hope is that having gone down with Goren on his painful journey we're about to go back up with him.
Patcat
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Post by deathroe on Aug 14, 2008 16:54:26 GMT -5
Just a few unfinished notes on this. Not sure if I wish I had time for more or not *g* --We don't know exactly what Tessa told her mother. Maybe she said she'd seen him more times. Hard to know what ANYBODY's parents are thinking in this day and age, IMHO. --I don't know if the writers talk to any teenagers. Their dialogue seems contrived to me, as does the Netspeak. Their somewhat vacuous inner world seems well-portrayed to me, mind you (my students watch things like the Girls Next Door. Creeps me out.) I like how Nobile's trying to show them the Titian painting (Sacred and Profane Love), and they're too busy looking at crap on their cell phones. Did anyone else sense a sly reference to those Jib Jab videos? --Nobile means "Noble." Yeah. Take that fwiw. Could well be part of the point was (and I'm afraid I don't have energy to watch and obsess, but) she was concerned about her daughter at the expense of other students. --Couple of sly literary references ("loneliness of the long-distance runner"). Not sure I cared Might be interesting to keep looking back and see if ANYTHING truly distinguished this one from a Benson/Stabler narrative. --I find it interesting how the principal almost blames the victim: he should have been at a more competitive school. Telling. --The premise that the students are attacking the teacher was the most truthful aspect of the situation to me. It happens all the time (and let's just leave it at that :/) What's wrong with wanting to get rid of a teacher who gives C's? Let me tell you, when a school is tuition-driven, that might also be an administrator's perspective. --The two fathers and their (juxtaposed) reactions to his son were classic CI. I actually liked the subtlety of the references to potential schizophrenia and think maybe I caught a trace of sympathy in Eames at that, also. Have to do some rewatching, though.
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Post by Techguy on Aug 14, 2008 22:21:39 GMT -5
My hope is that having gone down with Goren on his painful journey we're about to go back up with him. Amen to that. The roller coaster ride should be over soon (I hope) and Goren back in the saddle and on top of his game once again. Can't come soon enough for me.
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Post by dragonsback on Aug 16, 2008 6:22:16 GMT -5
Amen to TG's Amen. Walking out onto the ledge, I must say that I don't want to do the writers' job for them. Do they mean this? Do they refer to that? Is Goren looking awful because it's the scripted version, or does Goren look a mess because - hello, waiting for the flack - VDO personally is in some self-indulgently bored and slovenly place? I know that in recent posts I am always playing to the black side of things. In other more VDO-drool centric places on the web, I am absolutely awful. An atrocity! Always I feel comfortable when I post atrocities here. CI:us is a true salon
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Aug 16, 2008 8:51:58 GMT -5
This mom was desperate for her daughter to have a boyfriend. I think that is why not meeting him herself and taking her daughters word, made him ok. She was a good teacher but changed her strictness with her daughter. Her need to be her daughters friend made her have poor judgment. She let things slide with her daughter that she would never allowed in her students. So backward.
I think that VDO's look this season has to do with an actor being in character. Goren has been a mess, so he couldn't be neat and tidy. Now, I like Vincent clean shaven and much neater appearance. From the two pics from Frame that I have seen, he looks much neater. No beard and neater hair. For me, I am glad. I wish he would lose some of the black all the time. Maybe with Goren's improved mood next season, a more professional dress code might be back. Hopefully....
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