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Post by Patcat on Oct 31, 2008 13:06:52 GMT -5
Oh, and Tjill, I hope I didn't come off as dismissive of your ideas. They were very intriguing, and even if I disagreed with them, they were intelligent and thought provoking.
Patcat
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Post by quietfireca on Oct 31, 2008 13:40:43 GMT -5
[quote author=tjill board=discussion thread=3027 post=51863 time=1225425440
Why Did She Kill Frank? Is it because, as Goren thought, she wanted to take something away from him in revenge? No, I don't think so. She wanted to get rid of Frank because Frank treated her Bobby like crap and betrayed him. It will also be more convenient for her future plans to have Frank out of the way as one less reason for Bobby to stick around NY. [/quote]
Hmmm, I'm not sure..... Nicole never went out of her way to find Goren. She was stumbled upon by Goren and Eames during an investigation.
She never did anything for Goren, either, well except to get him steamed. (Taking Gwen to Phoenix was an interesting twist, but not done for Goren's approval.)
Her appearance after 3 years makes me think she's mentally on the same path as Declan. We know nothing about what she's been doing in that time. She could have been racking up bodies right, left and centre after losing Gwen. I don't think she's been planning revenge or how to make Goren's life easier. She would have tortured Goren before now if, indeed he was the only man she'd ever loved.
Nicole's only motives were purely selfish. So she's rather (read *a lot*) like Declan..... heh heh.
The writer's can twist things (and us) any way they want, but they better not have Nicole anything but dead. That, as in-another-life Chemist, would totally tick me off that the science could be messed with. Not in my lab.
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Post by quietfireca on Oct 31, 2008 14:00:36 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound cranky in that last post!!!
Maybe Nicole (and a certain Season 8 postponement) is bringing out the worst in me today. My apologies!!
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Post by Patcat on Oct 31, 2008 15:22:05 GMT -5
Nicole makes some of us very, very cranky. I may need to get an ANB--Anti-Nicole Bat.
Patcat
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Post by kingzelixlv on Dec 4, 2008 1:24:38 GMT -5
I love nicole and cant see why anyone wouldnt, shes a great antagonist and quite honestly a perfect woman for boby lol puzzles all day long but i really hope they find a way to make a loophole in her situation, i dont want her to be dead just yet
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 4, 2008 7:48:05 GMT -5
I agree that there is still a good Nicole Wallace episode out there, and that her character deserves an appropriate finale. Having her leave the series in such a wimpy way was unsatisfying, IMO. I also hope that there is a loophole and we have one, final confrontation between Bobby & Nicole.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 23, 2009 9:22:39 GMT -5
Hmmm, I'm not sure..... Nicole never went out of her way to find Goren. She was stumbled upon by Goren and Eames during an investigation. I caught the beginning of "Frame" last evening. Even though I agree that in prior episodes, Goren & Eames stumbled upon Nicole during her crime sprees, in this episode she deliberately lures Bobby by selecting Frank as her victim. At Frances' gravesite, Goren finds the beautifully framed photo of the brothers. Meaning that Nicole was in Frank's dump at least one time before the murder. And they must have partied before, since Frank made no attempt to hide the drugs when he heard Nicole at the door. Frank seemed so sincere at the meeting. Truly mournful about his Mom's birthday. Seemingly determined to face the day straight. Was it all an act for the group's benefit? Nicole knows he's still getting high - she's his party buddy, so it isn't to fool her?
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Post by Patcat on Jan 23, 2009 10:06:58 GMT -5
But did Nicole pick Frank? Did she even know about him? I had the impression that Gage arranged for Nicole to meet and murder Frank. (Although I tend to get things like this wrong.)
Frank always ACTS sincere. He seemed sincere when he started asking Bobby about their mother's finances. He seemed sincere when he thanks his "higher power." But he never is.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 23, 2009 11:20:19 GMT -5
Nicole had to know about Frank. In her investigations about Bobby in " Anti-Thesis," she found out all about Frances and Carmel Ridge. In "A Person Of Interest," she knew all about Goren's "Daddy," the bon vivant, and the divorce details. Info on Frank, Bobby's only sibling, must have surfaced during one of those searches.
We know that Declan drew Nicole out with his book on women serial killers. After that, we don't know who initially had the idea to stalk & kill Frank. Nicole had motive - to take from Bobby the only family he had left.
I wonder if Nicole first wanted to make Eames the target of her vengeance, and was discouraged by Declan? Nicole knows how much he cares for her. She is also a rival of some sorts, if we are to believe that she confessed before dying that Bobby was the only man she ever loved. That whole confession rings false to me.
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Post by Patcat on Jan 23, 2009 12:09:11 GMT -5
I also wonder why Nicole never targeted Eames. She sent some barbs towards her--I remember one regarding Eames' surrogate pregnancy--but never seemed to seriously threaten her. If Nicole did want to target Eames, Gage would certainly discourage it, not out of any concern for Bobby or Alex, but because Gage couldn't believe any woman could be important to "his" Bobby. But I think Gage is a sexist pig, so...(g)
I wonder why Nicole never brought Frank up before? You're right that she must have known Bobby had a brother. Was it perhaps because Nicole couldn't relate to having a sibling (although we don't know if she did or didn't have any), while she could relate to having one or more destructive parents?
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Jan 23, 2009 12:11:21 GMT -5
Nicole had to know about Frank. In her investigations about Bobby in " Anti-Thesis," she found out all about Frances and Carmel Ridge. In "A Person Of Interest," she knew all about Goren's "Daddy," the bon vivant, and the divorce details. Info on Frank, Bobby's only sibling, must have surfaced during one of those searches. We know that Declan drew Nicole out with his book on women serial killers. After that, we don't know who initially had the idea to stalk & kill Frank. Nicole had motive - to take from Bobby the only family he had left. I wonder if Nicole first wanted to make Eames the target of her vengeance, and was discouraged by Declan? Nicole knows how much he cares for her. She is also a rival of some sorts, if we are to believe that she confessed before dying that Bobby was the only man she ever loved. That whole confession rings false to me. I wondered, Nicole seducing Declan? But then Bobby did say that was the only way she knew how to relate to men, According to Bobby Nicole didn't know how to love. According to Declan she had to be convinced to Kill Frank. But your right Goren would have taken it harder if she would have killed Eames than to kill Frank. I think if she said that at the end, it was just to stick it to Bobby and not a true emotion on her part. Nicole was too far gone. Just one last chance to manipulate Bobby.
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Post by quietfireca on Jan 23, 2009 13:50:40 GMT -5
I caught the beginning of "Frame" last evening. Even though I agree that in prior episodes, Goren & Eames stumbled upon Nicole during her crime sprees, in this episode she deliberately lures Bobby by selecting Frank as her victim. At Frances' gravesite, Goren finds the beautifully framed photo of the brothers. Meaning that Nicole was in Frank's dump at least one time before the murder. And they must have partied before, since Frank made no attempt to hide the drugs when he heard Nicole at the door. Frank seemed so sincere at the meeting. Truly mournful about his Mom's birthday. Seemingly determined to face the day straight. Was it all an act for the group's benefit? Nicole knows he's still getting high - she's his party buddy, so it isn't to fool her? You know Donna, I have to modify my earlier comments. I detest Nicole so much - she's the type of person I go a long way to avoid - that I didn't take Person of Interest into account, which is the one time she did directly target Goren.* What a vindictive little...... Hello, woman, you kill people, you need to be locked up for the rest of your (un)natural life! I digress.... It was Declan with his new book on woman serial killers that drew Nicole out. From what Declan said, don't we have to assume it was Declan's idea to kill Frank? Having Nicole to do his dirty work was icing on the cake. Declan must have been in devious heaven when she showed up. She made it a dawdle in the park to get Frank; "a little smile, a little shove".... (Goren would have been "happier" to know it was Nicole's idea to kill Frank - he could have understood that, but he was completely blindsided by Declan orchestrating that. Poor Bobby) That's *very* interesting that you think Frank and Nicole had partied before.... Very interesting. Frank was totally delusional to think someone with the classy facade that Nicole projects would be interested in going for a roll in his junkie apartment... Easy pickings for Nicole. I really don't know about Frank. You want to believe him when he seems to be sincere - and from Bobby's comments about him, he wants to believe, but he's been disappointed far too often. On one hand Frank will set Bobby up for the Tate's episode and with the other hand he'll give Bobby their mother's ring that he hadn't pawned.... *when Goren and Eames found her again in Great Barrier she wasn't looking for them - for good reason - they were well prepared and united against her; Eames engaging her first, standing between Nicole and Goren, and a few minutes later a very subtle gesture to Eames behind Nicole's back basically telling her that it's okay, just give me some space to needle her.... Oh, go team!
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Post by quietfireca on Jan 23, 2009 14:07:08 GMT -5
I wonder if Nicole first wanted to make Eames the target of her vengeance, and was discouraged by Declan? Nicole knows how much he cares for her. She is also a rival of some sorts, if we are to believe that she confessed before dying that Bobby was the only man she ever loved. That whole confession rings false to me. I just can't figure out why Nicole didn't target Eames. Talk about an obvious choice. Goren adores and depends on Eames and they are a huge united force that no one has managed to split (even Goren in his perceived faux pas in Purgatory didn't separate them!! She's the epitome of loyalty.) And she is a prime target. And she annoys the heck out of Declan. But Frank is the dead weight. Declan want's Bobby to have a clean slate. Eames is no dead weight. She's what's keeping Goren glued together. Maybe Declan realized that. He's not out to destroy Bobby, just get him back in the game. Harming Eames would have been the killing blow. Somebody has to be left to pick up the pieces. Which gives me fodder to assume Declan really did orchestrate the whole thing. If Nicole had been the controlling factor, Eames would probably be toast.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jan 23, 2009 14:17:14 GMT -5
*when Goren and Eames found her again in Great Barrier she wasn't looking for them - for good reason - they were well prepared and united against her; Eames engaging her first, standing between Nicole and Goren, and a few minutes later a very subtle gesture to Eames behind Nicole's back basically telling her that it's okay, just give me some space to needle her.... Oh, go team! Oh.....how I love that subtle gesture you describe in the Major Case interview room!! It's so fleeting that one can easily miss it (except us over-zealous obsessed fans). Bobby putting his hands palms out with a "Relax, Eames.....It's OK" expression before he rips Nicole a new one.
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Post by Patcat on Jan 23, 2009 14:30:05 GMT -5
Well, Declan says he wants to get Bobby back in the game. But Bobby is already back in the game, and I think the episode where he's completely back is VANISHED. The magician's effort to divide and conquer Goren and Eames stuns them for a second, but then they're back. The team is not completely healed, but it's well on its way.
The game Declan wants Bobby to get back into is the one where Declan plays with Bobby. Bobby's engaged; he's just not engaged with Declan, and that's all that matters to Gage.
Patcat
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