|
Post by quietfireca on Jan 23, 2009 14:34:57 GMT -5
*when Goren and Eames found her again in Great Barrier she wasn't looking for them - for good reason - they were well prepared and united against her; Eames engaging her first, standing between Nicole and Goren, and a few minutes later a very subtle gesture to Eames behind Nicole's back basically telling her that it's okay, just give me some space to needle her.... Oh, go team! Oh.....how I love that subtle gesture you describe in the Major Case interview room!! It's so fleeting that one can easily miss it (except us over-zealous obsessed fans). Bobby putting his hands palms out with a "Relax, Eames.....It's OK" expression before he rips Nicole a new one. She must have seen him winding up and given him a warning look! They must have had a plan of attack if Nicole ever "graced" their doorstep again.... I gotta go find those clips........
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 23, 2009 14:45:02 GMT -5
It has been a while since I watched "Frame", but from what I remember, Nicole "picked up" Frank at an NA meeting.
She was leading the meeting, and then they went for coffee.
It was my impression that she then lured him back to his apartment and gave him drugs.
This made perfect sense to me, and I even felt a little bad for Frank. It seemed he was trying to get clean, in fact, he was clean wasn't he? He was at his meeting talking about dealing with his mother's death.
As I have said here before, I know all about the 12 step programs and this was great writing. An addict early in recovery, dealing with being a louse, and now it is his mother's birthday and he is trying to deal with all these feelings that he stuffed while using -makes perfect sense.
I even got the feeling that Frank had gone out to the gravesite and left the picture, maybe before the meeting.
So he goes to an NA meeting, meets an attractive, sympathetic woman, they go out for coffee, and then back to his apartment "to talk" and she offers drugs... sad as it is, this is not at all unusual in the 12 step world.
So unless I am remembering it wrong, I still put my money on writers very familiar with addiction and recovery, and I would bet this is how they wanted it to play out.
|
|
|
Post by ragincajun on Jan 23, 2009 15:03:06 GMT -5
It has been a while since I watched "Frame", but from what I remember, Nicole "picked up" Frank at an NA meeting. She was leading the meeting, and then they went for coffee. It was my impression that she then lured him back to his apartment and gave him drugs. This made perfect sense to me, and I even felt a little bad for Frank. It seemed he was trying to get clean, in fact, he was clean wasn't he? He was at his meeting talking about dealing with his mother's death. As I have said here before, I know all about the 12 step programs and this was great writing. An addict early in recovery, dealing with being a louse, and now it is his mother's birthday and he is trying to deal with all these feelings that he stuffed while using -makes perfect sense. I even got the feeling that Frank had gone out to the gravesite and left the picture, maybe before the meeting. So he goes to an NA meeting, meets an attractive, sympathetic woman, they go out for coffee, and then back to his apartment "to talk" and she offers drugs... sad as it is, this is not at all unusual in the 12 step world. So unless I am remembering it wrong, I still put my money on writers very familiar with addiction and recovery, and I would bet this is how they wanted it to play out. I am afraid your remember wrong, Frank went to coffee with Donnie's mother, and asked her for money for Donny, but he wasn't in contact with Donny so that was a lie. Nicole followed Frank to the coffee shop and left her number with the cashier, so Frank must have called her to come over. Bobby commented that All frank did with his photos was stick them on the wall with tacs and tape, he wouldn't have taken the time to honor the pic with a frame, but Nicole did. Oh and remember Bobby's comment in Unthethered, When Frank isn't in program, he talks program, or something like that. I think he used the people in that program for sympathy, or to make Donny's mom think he was getting help.
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 23, 2009 15:19:01 GMT -5
I wonder if Nicole first wanted to make Eames the target of her vengeance, and was discouraged by Declan? Nicole knows how much he cares for her. She is also a rival of some sorts, if we are to believe that she confessed before dying that Bobby was the only man she ever loved. That whole confession rings false to me. I just can't figure out why Nicole didn't target Eames. Talk about an obvious choice. Goren adores and depends on Eames and they are a huge united force that no one has managed to split ( Which gives me fodder to assume Declan really did orchestrate the whole thing. If Nicole had been the controlling factor, Eames would probably be toast. Oh, great topic you guys! I love this stuff- thanks for your thoughts! Nicole didn't target Eames because Eames wasn't what Nicole is after. The very first thing is, Nicole would have no idea what Eames means to Bobby, primarily because Bobby doesn't even really know!! Most of the stuff we get about Goren and Eames relationship comes from subtle insider moments we are privy too, and they are very subtle! Look at it objectively from the outside... Do Bobby and Alex spend time outside of work together? Does anyone see them talking on a personal level at great length? DO THEY? No, not that we have ever seen, in fact, a lot of what we actually see is Bobby shutting Eames out. We can get in Bobby's head and see what he is feeling for Eames, but lets face it, on the surface, he still chose his shield over her. I think Nicole, no matter how they ended up making her look, was supposed to be brilliant. I am thinking of Irene Adler here, whether they did her justice or not... She was supposed to be THE WOMAN who broke through Bobby's reserves. At least this is what I always thought the idea was... What are Bobby's reserves? His family. No matter how sick, he is enmeshed with them. His childhood is still controlling a lot of his present life. Nicole rattled Bobby that first day not because she GOT in, but because she already WAS in his inner world... in more ways than one. She had all the things that were VERY important to him, the things he would talk about but not feel. She knew that. She knew that not only would the info rattle him,but the way she brought it up- the time, and place- he was trapped. Thus, we see the dynamic that drives people nuts... that whole crazy sexual dance in interrogation. She is someone who has become intimate with him in yes, a sick way, but she has none the less. She has entered a world he has kept closely guarded. She is sharp. She knew he was brilliant ( she said so in Anti), so I am sure that the minute he was rattled, she knew she had hit a gold mine in terms of Bobby Goren. If she would have targeted Eames, I dare say he would have gotten her. For one thing, Eames isn't an easy target. For another, Bobby doesn't have the kind of sick dynamic with her that he does with his family. By targeting his family, she pulls the rug out from under him, and he loses his bearings. If we look at Bobby truthfully, when he hurt Eames, he felt bad for a moment, but he got right back on his feet. When he was detached from her, he went right on with his life. When he has a falling out with Mom, or Frank,(or even his job for goodness sake!) he loses it. It isn't pretty. But it is the truth of Robert Goren. And it is why he is such a cool character.
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 23, 2009 15:42:30 GMT -5
It has been a while since I watched "Frame", but from what I remember, Nicole "picked up" Frank at an NA meeting. I am afraid your remember wrong, Frank went to coffee with Donnie's mother, and asked her for money for Donny, but he wasn't in contact with Donny so that was a lie. Nicole followed Frank to the coffee shop and left her number with the cashier, so Frank must have called her to come over. Bobby commented that All frank did with his photos was stick them on the wall with tacs and tape, he wouldn't have taken the time to honor the pic with a frame, but Nicole did. Oh and remember Bobby's comment in Unthethered, When Frank isn't in program, he talks program, or something like that. I think he used the people in that program for sympathy, or to make Donny's mom think he was getting help.[/quote] Ok, thanks, you made me go back and watch it. Nicole was at the NA meeting. So that explains why she left her number for Frank, and he would have known her. And I forgot about the picture. Yes, no doubt Nicole left it there. Ugh, it is so depressing. Frank is the perfect addict. He calls the mother of his son, lies to get the money, goes to the meeting, and then goes and gets the money and uses. The stuff I could say about Frank... He was a sitting duck for Nicole. As for Declan and Nicole working together, that all got a little too crazy for me... I kept waiting for the Joker to come out and join the evil team against Batman. That is what it felt like.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jan 23, 2009 15:44:01 GMT -5
Wow, leanonme...Those are some compelling ideas. I have to be honest and say I can't agree with them, but the sort of things that make me go...well...Wow.
I think Nicole's brilliance and insight into Bobby is limited. She attacks him again and again about his family, particularly his mother and father (or the man he thought was his father). But she continues this attack long after Bobby has come to expect and deal with it.
Thank goodness Nicole didn't or didn't seem to know about Brady.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by deathroe on Jan 23, 2009 15:54:33 GMT -5
I'm afraid that I never thought that Nicole lived up to her hype. The idea of her is more than she actually is or than how she actually comes across. In that way, to me, Eames is an anti-Nicole. For all the writers' determination to make Eames nothing more than a foil, Erbe made her into something much greater. To me, Eames is a fantastic character, whereas Nicole (again, despite how the writers have tended to hit us over the head with her) is a cartoon who has pulled the series irrevocably into the realm of camp. This is why I'd rather she never came back--I'd rather we had new and better-crafted stories. The two principals (yes, I think that there are two principals on the show) are great performers who deserve no less. Sorry to be a little harsh, but I do occasionally call 'em as I see 'em
|
|
|
Post by quietfireca on Jan 23, 2009 16:12:25 GMT -5
I think Nicole's brilliance and insight into Bobby is limited. She attacks him again and again about his family, particularly his mother and father (or the man he thought was his father). But she continues this attack long after Bobby has come to expect and deal with it. Thank goodness Nicole didn't or didn't seem to know about Brady. Patcat Yes, they're cheap petty stabs and once you've heard them once, Goren know what's coming the next time. She has nothing new in her repertoire. She knows what she can read about him in public documents, but she's spent no time with the man, so she takes stabs in the wind and hopes they hit home. How much worse could her words get? So I guess she stepped things up a notch with killing Frank - guaranteed to get Goren's attention. She'd been out of sight for years and didn't wake up one day and decide it was a good day to torture Goren..... then again.... It has to be Declan pulling the strings on that one. (I bet there was an ongoing power struggle with Nicole and Declan - him honking the horn when she was in the florists, him refusing to sleep with her. Perfect couple.) It really would be soapish if they brought her back. Oh, ya, it'd be an episode about that narcissistic sociopathic woman that killed Goren's brother. What's she gonna do this time? I think she had her final coup in killing Frank. Patcat, if they'd had a final confrontation, Goren would have been expecting a MFB/serial killer dad attack, so he would have been okay. Nicole has lost her verbal power.
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 23, 2009 16:16:34 GMT -5
I agree DR. Your comments are awesome.
In fact, as I was writing my post about Nicole ( oh, and the stuff I could have written) I was thinking..."Damn, she had so much potential."
I think the original premise was a great idea, which fell short.
Alas, the CI that lives in my head vs. the reality.
What a great idea about Eames as the anti-Nicole. KE has done an amazing job giving us an Eames to sink our teeth into. That is reality.
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 23, 2009 16:51:44 GMT -5
Wow, leanonme...Those are some compelling ideas. I have to be honest and say I can't agree with them, but the sort of things that make me go...well...Wow. I think Nicole's brilliance and insight into Bobby is limited. Patcat Yeah, they would be compelling if they were true wouldn't they? LOL Because I read what you wrote here, and I think, you are right, Nicole's brilliance and insight into Bobby is limited. But damn, I wish it weren't so... The Nicole in my head is great! AAGGGHHH! I started thinking about Nicole and Irene Adler this week when the rumors started about Nicole being alive. All these ideas started rolling around in the back of my head about what if Bobby had a REAL foe... and I want to talk about that idea, because truthfully, I just don't find what Nicole turned out to be very interesting. I am afraid that a week of sleep deprivation, research, writing, and analysis has blurred the line of what CI really is, vs. what I wish it were. It is time for me to get off of here today! I mean, if I stay on here any longer in this mindset, I might actually believe that they would bring Nicole back from the dead... Ok, I promise, I'm leaving now to go and "examine entrails to divine the premiere date." - That was a great line Patcat! LOL
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Jan 23, 2009 20:23:03 GMT -5
Nicole would have no idea what Eames means to Bobby, primarily because Bobby doesn't even really know!! Most of the stuff we get about Goren and Eames relationship comes from subtle insider moments we are privy too, and they are very subtle! Look at it objectively from the outside... and... What are Bobby's reserves? His family. No matter how sick, he is enmeshed with them. His childhood is still controlling a lot of his present life..... By targeting his family, she pulls the rug out from under him, and he loses his bearings. I never thought of that...how the Goren & Eames relationship looks to the outside world. You are right - the little moments of affection & caring are usually when the two of them are alone together. Nicole would never see their closeness. Sure, she's smart, but she isn't knowledgeable about the bond police partners share. It wouldn't dawn on her to choose Eames. And yes..Bobby has been and still is messed up when it comes to his family. People can get to him, not just Nicole. Look at how he freaked out with Ross & Rogers regarding his biological father, MFB? Whenever someone (even Eames) mentions his mother, father, brother....he is visibly affected. He puts up a wall, averts his gaze, and prepares himself for defensive action. Right now, Goren is weak emotionally. If Nicole was brought back from the dead, she could deeply wound him, especially in his current vulnerable state. A few scathing, hurtful remarks about Frank or Brady would be enough to push him over the edge.
|
|
|
Post by quietfireca on Jan 23, 2009 20:58:25 GMT -5
And yes..Bobby has been and still is messed up when it comes to his family. People can get to him, not just Nicole. Look at how he freaked out with Ross & Rogers regarding his biological father, MFB? Whenever someone (even Eames) mentions his mother, father, brother....he is visibly affected. He puts up a wall, averts his gaze, and prepares himself for defensive action. Donna, I would agree back at TWAH time, he really withdrew. But he talked openly about Frank with Eames in Frame - Frank blamed everyone else, didn't care about the photos, etc. He's revealed a lot to her about Frank. (of course Frank was dead by then and things couldn't get any worse - except for exposing himself by talking more about him). And when he used to comment on negligent fathers and she would quip that she really was listening, he would crack a smile (Seizure). But he sure blew a gasket at Rodgers and Ross. That information is a pretty recent development in his life and I guess he still has to digest it. He is so raw at this point, anything would get to him. I want to know how he dealt with the rest of the day after they would have hauled Declan out by the scruff of the neck. (p.s. it's really annoying me that "Declan" will be on Numbers tonight... At least I think that's him.... Can't recall his name... So I get to see him, but NOT BOBBY!!! NOT FAIR!!!!)
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Jan 23, 2009 22:07:16 GMT -5
You're right, QFC, that is John Glover (Declan) on Numbers tonight. I saw the previews last night during CSI. As for Bobby and Alex's relationship, I think they talk a lot more than we are allowed to see. In "Amends", when Bobby hears the name of the detective who was shot, he looks at Eames and says "Is that the same. . ." He doesn't finish the sentence because Alex nods. No more needs to be said, he understands the nod as an affirmation that Det. Quinn is the same Quinn who was Joe's partner the night he was shot. In "Purgatory", Alex knew where to find him at lunchtime. Maybe somewhere they often go together to eat, or maybe because she knows his habits during his off-time. And in "Frame", when Ross tells Alex that Simmons is looking at at Bobby's financials, she gets visibly upset and says "Ask me!" This implies that she has considerable knowledge of his personal life. I'm sure I can think of a few more instances, but I'm hungry and my brain has temporarily gone on hiatus! I'll try to noodle this for awhile and come up with some more stuff.
|
|
|
Post by deathroe on Jan 24, 2009 2:00:36 GMT -5
*clears throat* Um, I will say up front I have shipper tendencies--but that I think that the actors, at the least, have been playing it that way for some time (those anxious little glances, mostly Goren's. Not that he knows what he wants--not that either of them seems to.) Other people have given pretty good examples, so I'll just say that I agree with those. As to the writers--well, as far as I can see, they will do one thing or another depending on who is writing and on what suits. I don't know anything about writing for tv, but I have never known it not to be fluid. That said, not only do I think that the actors ship it up on occasion, but I also think that that is where we presently are, much more so than in the earlier seasons where it was asserted that it would never happen. I think that the writers have been playing with the idea, and I think that it actually makes the show interesting. Benson and Stabler have a web of outside connections (well, Stabler does, but there's also the ensemble). So do the Mothership kids. Goren and Eames have ... each other. It's an interesting dynamic, whatever one wants of it. I mean, I'm ... just saying ... ::ducks flying objects::
|
|
leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
|
Post by leanonme on Jan 24, 2009 10:34:59 GMT -5
Ok, I will say upfront that I am definately NOT a shipper. So much so, that just the thought of it makes me feel like I am entering a sick Jerry Springer incest show. I don't think shippers are wrong, and I certainly can see where, especially of late ,the writers may have played both sides of the street, but *shudders* it just isn't for me. Having given my disclaimer, I still stand by my original premise, to any shipper or no, to look at it objectively, to the outside world, Bobby and Alex look like coworkers. The examples that you gave, OBC, are good ones, and true, but still, in the dealings of normal coworkers, or friends. And, maybe it is the Bobby that lives in my head, but I still think that he isn't even aware of his attachment to Alex, even as a friend. VDO said himself that the only relationship( or most significant relationship...I think the quote was on the USA site) Bobby has had in ( I think 7 years) was with Nicole, and he commented that the idea of only having a relationship with Nicole is pretty sick. I agree. I guess the bottom line, and this may come from my own history, is that I still think Bobby is pretty wounded and that is the bond that he and Nicole share. She knows that, and so she would go after the stuff that would hurt Bobby ( maybe not a well adjusted man, but Bobby) and that is his family. I think they took a great idea and ruined it. I have said this before, but it wasn't the information that Nicole had that set Bobby off, but the way she hit him with it. In her first two appearances, she hit him in his biggest area of strength... interrogation. She hit him exactly like he hits everyone else, by taking their most vulnerable stuff, stuff they already know, and using it to, well, mindscrew them. So it was a simpletons way of having her get him... to just kill Frank. It would have been better to have her get information from Frank that she could have blindsided him with later, or have Frank really get well, and strike up a good relationship with Bobby, and then Nicole sneaks in an influences Frank to go off the wagon,... or to have her strike up a disgusting romance with Donny, or just keep her out there- always out there, or to, oh, the places my sick little mind could go! LOL So, I think that Nicole would never go after Eames, because she knows Bobby too well. Or she was supposed to... who knows.
|
|