nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Aug 24, 2008 22:49:38 GMT -5
I'm still mulling this episode over. There was so much that got to me in this show. There was so much going yet it all worked together so well.
Gage said that he was trying to "free" Goren. To me that is how he justified what he did to Goren, but that wasn't what he was doing. It was a mixture of jealousy, anger, and revenge that fueled Gage. Of everything and everyone that's involved with Goren. He was trying to destroy all of that in the guise that he was doing it for Goren.
I'm glad that Eames got to give her opinion over what Gage said about her to Ross. I only wish we would have gotten to see her and Ross come in to do the actual arresting of Gage for the murders.
I'm sure I will have more to comment on once my mind gets wrapped around everything I saw and thought about this episode. But overall, it was a nice wrapping up of the past two years.
nosee
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Post by dragonsback on Aug 24, 2008 23:13:37 GMT -5
Yes, but .... What HAPPENED! Who died , who lived, and did Gage say "You're free"? Who spoke those LINES? We are in the fuzzy dark HERE, 12, 000 miles away. Skip the fainting couch. Skip the ship stuff. What happened??? What transpired> ? And Nicole? Dead or alive??? Skip your personal angst, your personal ship (ugh). and let's go straight to the chase. if you wouldn't mind. Please do not wallow.
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Post by darmok on Aug 24, 2008 23:46:19 GMT -5
Given the "tit for tat" note, he must have said A LOT; given Gage's retention of all that, Gage must have been obsessing about Goren a LOT. Nicole must have written that note. We saw her in the flower shop send two bouquets - one to 1PP & one to Phoenix. The flowers confused me at first, but the one to Gage was requested via email. It was also signed. Nicole didn't need to sign hers. I guess Gage did the last one, but Nicole did the "Tit for Tat" and the Melville reference. Gage was in on it of course since that's where her heart was sent. I don't care who asked, Rodgers never should have broken Bobby's confidence. I do like how she handled his little tantrum, though. "I dropped my tray" means "Uh, my fault. . .leave him alone". I do hope we get a scene in Season 8 where Bobby tells her he's sorry for popping off that way and she apologizes for breaching his trust. They really should start off on the right foot so he can get back to annoying her when he tries to handle her cadavers. Rodgers seemed genuinely scared and shaken up. While she may understand why he was mad, I would guess their relationship will be strained. It's over, TG. No doubt whatsoever. In that final scene we have just received the first message from the new CI creative team. Rene Balcer, through his close (and recommended) colleagues Walon Green and Michael Chernuchin, has reclaimed his creation. I agree. Even though it's possible that Goren still wouldn't be free, I think this episode is a way of cleaning up everything. One parallel to other episodes not mentioned yet was when Eames wanted to wait before opening the package, but Goren just opened it (Pas de Deux). Loved Eames' disgust with Gage when he suggested that she could have killed Frank. Gage: "It's someone from your past. Don't rule anyone out." Right then I thought it could be him ("I see dead people"). But then I thought it could be some cops still mad at "the rat." Got that one wrong. I loved this one. It wrapped up a lot of things. I like the personal episodes, but I'll also be glad to get the old Goren back. And we only have to wait until November!
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Post by deathroe on Aug 25, 2008 0:07:09 GMT -5
I'm going straight to Hell for posting again ... but .. some other thoughts ...
--Starting the episode with "No, see" was such a lovely little gesture.
--Ahhhhh, Nicole was running Frank's NA meeting. Giving her a creepy little cult following, almost. Shades of the murderer in "Renewal"--and it's actually kind of interesting that there were major shades of that unsuccessful episode in this one (Goren finding Frank like Logan found Holly whatsit.)
--I also love how Declan basically spills the beans early on--maybe she had a partner who turned on her--and it's true! Nobody IS really listening to him. Very nice.
--Eames: "With serial killers, the most important interview is with someone who survives." This may be a larger lens for interpretation--Goren has survived Brady. E and G are both survivors.
--Gage IS selfish: When Eames was kidnaped, he didn't blame Bobby (his feelings). His daughter was clever.
--One might have wanted to hear more about what became of Jo.
--In several scenes, including the one where they find out that the heart is Nicole's, the person Goren is engaging with, trying to persuade, is above all Eames. I'd have to go back and check, but there are other scenes like this.
--The logic of Nicole Wallace, she of the "disposable partners," being duped by a partner is actually very nice indeed. Not sure if she went out with a bang, but the whimper wasn't so bad. And the heart. And the "I only ever loved Bobby" (paraphrase) which mostly just seems to prove her insanity.
About Rodgers breaking Goren's trust: yes, maybe, but she probably violated rules by running the test to help him. Complicated. Hendrix really is the best thing on tv, too. She's never anything less than stellar.
--Eames getting upset when Ross and Rodgers kick her out was an excellent bit of characterization. She does not like being pulled rank on (the buddy boy system).
--Erbe's characterization of Eames is likewise stellar. Every scene where she's being long-suffering around Ross and Goren, she's just so ... active in showing how Eames would be and what Eames would feel.
--The collage motif at the end--"You cut and pasted the pieces of my life together." That's what the writers did. Metaliterary. Woohoo.
--The word "puzzle"--"I gave you a puzzle." That's what Eames tells Goren in "Amends"--this isn't one of your "puzzles." I think this bears further examination. Interaction with flesh and blood people has to be more than a puzzle; perhaps this is something that Goren has had to learn.
--Speaking of puzzles, though, I still don't know who would have known to use the alias "William Brady." Was it in the paper, what?
Still liking it on a rewatch. It still strikes me as a first-class effort to tie together all those various strands and as a labor of love by people who appreciate the totality of the series. Note how Declan raises father issues, how that mirrors the whole "subject is Daddies" exchange in "A Person of Interest." Very nice closure, and that is certainly rare enough in one's viewing, in this day and age.
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Post by deathroe on Aug 25, 2008 0:09:05 GMT -5
[adding: darmok, thanks for the clarification about the flowers. I was super confused. Caught the "Pas de Deux" reference in the preview, but it was super cute. I wonder if there are any other references.
Maybe playing this back to back with "Purgatory" was to give us a red herring about the rat cops' involvement? I thought the same thing you did, for sure!]
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 25, 2008 0:11:34 GMT -5
Yes, but .... What HAPPENED! Who died , who lived, and did Gage say "You're free"? Who spoke those LINES? We are in the fuzzy dark HERE, 12, 000 miles away. And Nicole? Dead or alive??? Nicole is dead, killed by Gage who then sent her heart to a B and B to the honeymoon suite for Goren and Eames to find when they went there looking for Nicole. Gage said "you're free" at the end in the interrogation room to Goren. No one knows where Donny is but he is not dead at the hands of Nicole or Gage. Jo Gage is in a coma and will not recover after she bit off her own tongue. Rodgers told Ross about Goren requesting a paternity test. She refused to reveal the results. Ross then told Eames about the test and then asked Goren who admitted his father was a serial killer. Goren picked up Gage from the hospital in his Mustang with the white convertible top. Gage was very sick from being attacked (supposedly) and injected with a paralysing drug ala Nicole. Nicole killed Frank by seducing him and injecting him with the same kind of drug and then pushing him out a window. Frank was back to smoking crack and circling the bowl. Gage told Goren everything in the end. I know I've left things out. So much to tell......
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Post by nwchimom on Aug 25, 2008 1:26:17 GMT -5
I have yet to see this episode, so I can only draw from what I have read. Firstly, Nicole could still be out there. They didn't recover her body. Ok, I know she was an evil witch without remorse or feelings (until Bobby made her feel self-loathing)...but I suspect even Nicole needs a heart to live. Someone mentioned Jo Gage biting off her tongue so she wouldn't have to talk with her father...but that was her rationale for the killings in Blind Spot. She wanted her father's attention, and her final words were something to the effect of "Now he'll HAVE to spend time with me." Eames looked so proud when she told Ross, "My partner would tell you, with serial killers? The most important interview...is with someone who survives." I want to know where Donny is. I want to know who put the rat in Goren's desk. I want to see Logan say goodbye. THEN the slate will be clean.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 25, 2008 2:57:19 GMT -5
Perhaps they left Donny in the wind so that Goren will have an ongoing quest of sorts. Instead of where's Waldo it will be where's Donny. I hope it isn't an issue like SVU Olivia searching for her father. Please be done with the personal crap. I didn't realize Gage had a drug problem. Goren remarked about Gage's loss of mental ability due to too much formaldahyde and drug use.
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Post by dragonsback on Aug 25, 2008 3:22:01 GMT -5
Recap: Picked body part, picked Frank as body bag, picked Nicole as second body, and picked Gage as speaker of last line.
Am I good? Nope . The writers were obvious.
Season 8 will be far better. I await it.
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eames47
Silver Shield Investigator
"What are they saying now???"
Posts: 173
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Post by eames47 on Aug 25, 2008 5:29:17 GMT -5
Wow! I go to bed after the episode, wake up and there's already 3 pages of Frame! Anyway.
Loved, loved, loved Eames in this. Most of the good parts have been said already, but I just loved how she had Goren's back on this. That now that Ross knew who his father was, that automatically made him a serial killer too? I don't think so.
The point with Rodgers though. She told Ross that Goren got the test done. But when Ross asked her about the results, she said, 'you'll have to ask him'. So she didn't TOTALLY go behind his back on this. I think Ross took a guess when talking to Goren and got it right. But I loved when Eames told Goren they needed to take a walk and she calmed him down somewhat. So much happened in this episode. I wonder if Leight got permission from Balcer to kill off his creation?
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Post by djcifan on Aug 25, 2008 5:35:27 GMT -5
So many great observations about the episode here from what seems to be a group of professional CI fans on this board. Two little comments of my own -
I laughed out loud when I saw Frank smoking crack while waiting for the hot blonde (ie Nicole) who lead his NA meeting. Only Frank. Now don't think I am doubting Nicole probably provided the drug to him, I'm sure she did, it was just my knee jerk reaction that he really isn't the brightest star in the sky if this is how he preps for a date with someone from NA.
Second - Declan says that she had missed having a partner. Made me think about partners and how hers made her weaker - either older men who got her into trouble (I guess Declan being the ultimate 'trouble') or younger ones who were perfect because she could mold them to her liking, but not mature enough to hold up under stress. But Goren, on the other hand, his partner makes him stronger.
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eames47
Silver Shield Investigator
"What are they saying now???"
Posts: 173
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Post by eames47 on Aug 25, 2008 5:40:25 GMT -5
My husband brought up a point last night, not sure what to make of it:
What did Rodgers test exactly, concerning Nicole? The blood or the actual tissue of the heart? Nicole collected a pint of her own blood before, in Great Barrier, I believe. I think Rodgers would have tested the heart itself, but he made me wonder.
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Post by darmok on Aug 25, 2008 7:06:44 GMT -5
I wonder if Leight got permission from Balcer to kill off his creation? If I remember correctly, Balcer had thought it best to kill Nicole off in Great Barrier. Then they had the idea of letting the viewers vote. I don't think he'll mind that she can't pop up again.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 25, 2008 7:17:38 GMT -5
Caught the midnight showing of this last night after an 18 hour car ride. I thought I would be too wiped out to watch. I was wrong. What an emotional roller coaster. ;D
Too many wonderful observations for me to try & engage, so I will simply agree that as a whole, the episode was fantastic. Never a dull moment. Although I would have loved a bit more of the crime story depicted in the teaser.
Boy, Frank is really a creep. Ignoring his brother's phone call, lying to Donny's frantic Mom about Bobby' role in saving Donny & especially about why he needed $800 from the poor woman. Taking her money, getting her hopes up just to get cash for his crack. I agree, it made his death a "good riddance."
Kudos to Ross, not flinching a muscle when a crazed Goren punches the air about a foot from his head in that confrontation about "Daddy Brady." BTW, did they really have to make Brady Goren's biological father? I hated that. It wasn't necessary. First of all, Goren Sr. was a bad father to both boys, not just Bobby. And Frances' indifference to Bobby (the good son) & adoration of Frank (the loser son) is typical in many families. We've discussed that here before many times.
I would have enjoyed a final confrontation between Goren & Nicole, a face to face. Not in place of the aria we had (it was excellent) but a mini aria halfway through. See how they would engage each other now, both older & wiser? Less idealistic? I wonder if Leight & the writers were afraid to take it on? The Nicole/Bobby arias of Rene Balcer would be hard to compete with.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 25, 2008 8:09:22 GMT -5
Well, as Gage said, Bobby being Brady's son explains both his mother and his supposed father's ill treatment of him.
I think Nicole is dead. I'm fairly certain Rodgers tested the heart. (Of course, if anyone could live without a heart, it's certainly Nicole. She's pretty heartless--which I'm sure the writers meant.)
There's still a couple of things to torment Bobby--the "rat" and Donnie.
I wonder what will happen to Frank's remains?
Patcat
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