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Post by quietfireca on Aug 25, 2008 22:43:42 GMT -5
Such a nice post OBC! And Alex only proved how deeply she cares about Bobby by resolutely sticking by him. The very thought that Ross would dare think Bobby was responsible for the murders upset her. I loved the look she gave Ross when he told her to clear him. Oh that look! Way to go KE! The way her eyes widened and her chin shot up in the air. She silently said to him, "You know what? I will! And you can go to hell!" (At least, that's what I heard.) Yay Alex! She was some kinda ticked at Ross. She did her normal head shaking when Ross and Goren confront one another, but this time I think the "you shouldn't be doing this" headshake was directly entirely at Ross. Ross doesn't have a sensitive or tactful bone in his body. I'm surprised he didn't duck as soon as he uttered "and your father". Fer pity's sake, how did he think such a private (and volatile) man was going to react to that coming from him? ya, ya, I know, he just wanted the information... Nice catch on the "Detective" parallel from Purgatory. I'm sure he felt she was betraying him, too. You could see the spark of interest in Goren's eye when she told him about the insurance policy. She knew that would slow him down. And he'd realize she was on his side. I was shocked he went to confront her. But I would have loved to have heard the whole conversation. At least Rodgers didn't tell Ross the results, but Goren probably didn't know that. I honestly think she cares about Goren, but I sure wish it wasn't Ross she gave the info to. When I saw the preview replay (roll eyes) I was surprised how under control Goren appeared to be. But once the episode started it was apparent that it was just a matter of time.... He is volatile. Outbursts or calculated yelling used to be only at the bad guys (with an occasional frustrated outburst at Carver or Deakins), but now it seems to be Ross that brings out his frustrated hissy fits (and I can understand why). Somebody jump in if they see it otherwise, I'd be interested to know if that more or less accurate. Thank goodness, that didn't seem tear him apart any more than he already was. It was not another knife twist. When he called Declan a "son of a B***h" for killing Frank the pain was sublime. And painful to watch. Wow, what a epi.
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Post by deathroe on Aug 26, 2008 2:19:56 GMT -5
A few quick remarks:
Outerbankschick--that sink thing is extremely well called.
Rodgers' 1st name comes up in her first appearance on TOS, I'm pretty sure.
Ragin, I can understand feeling for Declan. Maybe more in the sense that one feels for anyone who's the prisoner of his own mind. Interesting that he loves Bobby in his way and does not want that fate for him. Still.
Nicole is like a shadow in this episode. She just kind of fades out. It's so odd, really.
Not trying to be inflammatory or anything, but I'm curious about how Eames' "approval rating" goes up when she's backing Bobby and down again if she disagrees with him ("Purgatory"). Not singling anyone out: it's just kind of interesting to note.
Ross has limitations (I could have done without their being highlighted in "Betrayed"). But he has been known to be fairly kind to both Goren and Eames. Goren cannot be an easy man to deal with, and presumably, Ross has other detectives to deal with as well.
Finally getting to watch it again now. I'm excited--I'm not gonna lie :-D
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 26, 2008 6:30:15 GMT -5
I noticed the sink parallel too, OB. And that he was eating a piece of Chinese broccoli (food container from local take out was near sink). I took it to mean that he was making his dish by the sink, and paused to taste a piece while skimming through the photo album. Then he was going to sit & eat. Does this scenario help? What I don't understand is why Frank wouldn't jump to pick up the phone from the brother he regrettably pushed away? I know he was high, and expecting a date, but still. I believe that this why they chose to cut the end scene in "Purgatory," where Bobby tells Frank that he's finally done with him, that if he jumped off a bridge, Bobby would just wait for the splash. To keep the door cracked open for Bobby to call Frank. As far as Rogers, I hate to say this, but I think her motivation for revealing the DNA test to Ross was basically career self-preservation. That's why she looks guilty & covers for Goren's tantrum. Ross says to her "I'm not threatening you, Elizabeth, I'm trying to warn you. Goren's vulnerable. He has a target on his back. So does anyone who tries to helps him."
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 26, 2008 7:26:13 GMT -5
Perhaps Frank didn't pick up the phone because he had $800 in his pocket, a table of drugs, some entertainment coming over so why would he need Bobby? Frank reaches out to Bobby when it benfits him. He is/was a self centered, self serving junkie.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Aug 26, 2008 8:01:20 GMT -5
PatCat: I thought that Rodgers and Ross have seemed strained in the last few episodes. He was avoiding eye contact with her. A few weeks ago she greeted him and he just nodded at her. They have seemed uncomfortable with each other and this week his attitude toward her seemed concillatory. Oddly, I think she is the dumpee, lol. I have always known her name was Elizabeth. I thought Rodgers was right to impart what she did to Ross. It was innappropriate for BG to ask, DNA tests are thousands of dollars! I work in healthcare; i I asked the lab to check my hemoglobin we'd both get fired, lol, and that test costs $10. (As PatCat says, everyone in L&O world would have been sacked long ago) Together Rodgers and BG conspired to missappropriate NYPD resources, and that negates any expectation of privacy about the fact that such a test was run. She didn't reveal the results, which is what is important wrt respcting BGs presonal feelings on the subject. She also believed BG tobe unstable and at risk. I think it was the right thing to do. Re: the birthday screw-up, it was just a dumb error. Foolilsh continuity errors bug me. The point was made that Endgame was a year ago. It should clearly have been the one year anniversary of FGs death. Good comment earlier that Declan was trying to spare BG the white whale scenario. In Blind Spot (Asian rest scene) BG said to DG: "The Capt. thinks he [Sebastian] is your white whale." Declan was just referencing a conversation they had already had. Cooincidentally (in L&O world, in the real world it is a deliberalte plot devise) NW also made Moby references in her conflicts with BG. The writers tied it all up for us in one neat package. Frankly, the metaphore is getting tiresome, so I'm hoping this is the end of it. What I did appreciate about it in the larger sense, is that BG was showing hints of his former prowess. He recognozed the reference of the address immediately. Just like he knew the Hamlet ref immediately. That is classic Goren. More evidence pointing to the resurrection of the character as Rene Balcer conceived him. Re: the scope of the G/E relationship, I meant to say intimate, not personal. Clearly they are friends. I think this epi made it clear they are not confidants. They are not intimate, and certainly not lovers. I think they are appropriately close for people who work together 60-80 hours a week in a job that demands you risk your life for your partner. Police seem like servicemen to me in that respect, uncommonly tighly bound. "Brothers" if you will. My poorly made point was that this is the relationship the G/E have. Appropriate to the scope of their professional partnership. And further, that their professional partnership is returning to the level it was season 3-4. Re: the weight comments: Television is a visual medium. IMO anything on the show is up for discussion, including physical appearance of the actors. VD is bigger now than he was when he did FMJ. There has been endless discussion of his size for that film, but now it's not any of our business? Balderdash. Some might think it is a deliberate choice to demonstrate the downward spiral of the character. I don't know or care really, because I'm not personally invested. I do realize that some people are highly personally invested, but even those people have to acknowledge the elephant in the room. I think it s of interest to the SHOW. I went on to observe that a transformation of sorts was already apparant with wardrobe and lighting. VD may slim down to a normal size as BG "recovers." It may well have been a characer device. "Method acting," right? To refuse to acknowledge a weight gain upwards of 80 pounds is just silly. If we can't discuss VDs weight change, then Rodgers' hair color is also out, etc, etc. How the characters present is as much a part of the show as the set, the script, direction, etc. If some people infer negative connotations about the individual actor b/c of his weight gain, that is on them. They guy has gotten fat. Deliberate or not, that is the question. The answer is of interest to fans of the show. Droolingfangirls will insist the guy doesn't fart, lol, and unless flatulence becomes a significant plot point, I will let them have that one. But let's not kid ourselves about what is obvious to everyone.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 26, 2008 8:55:40 GMT -5
There was an episode a few seasons back about a basketball coach eating his meals standing in the kitchen at the sink. Goren made mention to his temporary partner about his father doing the same. When she asked if he did that also, Goren quickly replied "no". I got the feeling during that conversation that Goren wanted to make it clear that he isn't that far gone. Now in this episode we see that he is eating at the sink....like the lonely and lost coach.....like his lonely and lost father.
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Post by dragonsback on Aug 26, 2008 8:57:51 GMT -5
I can only add that I wish I had written Annabelleleigh's letter, it's that good. Lovesong has followed up with her own discerning take, to which I fully subscribe. There are many fan sites that are pure, uncritical, temples to this fine actor. The CI:us site is not one of them.
D'Onofrio's onscreen appearance is most definitely open to mention. It's not private life, it's very public, and part of his "Method" . As noted, he has used weight as a character attribute for Kubrick's Pyle.
In the case of Goren, I think the very large weight gain has adversely affected his art.
Do I personally think that VDO's extreme weight gain is deliberate, is akin to Full Metal Jacket? Nope. I think the man has just let himself go, and with that release has gone the dangerous grace that first inhabited Goren. Others may disagree. To say, though, that "it's none of our business" is inappropriate, IMO.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 26, 2008 9:45:39 GMT -5
Lovesong--thanks for that clarification. I've seen the awkwardness between Ross and Rodgers, but I took that to be because both of them aren't sure how to deal with each other in front of others at work.
Re. Mr. D'Onofrio's appearance--In the photos I've seen of him when he's not Goren recently, he looks pretty good. He could stand to lose a few more pounds (aside from Micheal Phelps and Olympic gymnasts, nearly everyone could stand to lose a few pounds), but he looks good. I think there's been a deliberate attempt to make Bobby look really bad this season, which is as it should be.
Patcat
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Post by deathroe on Aug 26, 2008 10:45:08 GMT -5
I don't feel the same way (I think that Rodgers has shown some genuine regard toward Goren). I am not sure, however, if that would be the worst thing. Does Rodgers trust Goren? We don't know. Does she work for a living? Yes. Any working woman has to look first her career. Yes, even Eames. Visual or not (and I am sorry to disagree with people whom I hold in esteem here)--think carefully about how you would feel if you got a letter about your weight. I bet you VDO would feel the same way, even if he is a celeb. Tall guys age tend to age that way, and guys with some of his ethnic traits' faces get like that at a certain age. I should know ... hope no one minds my putting my oar in. I am not the world's biggest Vincent fancier (others can claim that title), but I feel for anyone in our culture who is put under the microscope physically, as we tend to. I'm a little concerned about it. Diablo, excellent point about Frank not answering to Goren. And then there was that scene where Donny's mother chides Goren for not doing anything for Donny. So terribly poignant when Goren had done everything for the sake of the family he never had. Obviously, Donny is being left out there for future use *s* ... I keep coming back to this episode. Sleight of hand, yes, and one might (or might not) have wanted Nicole's demise to be more flashy, but it had some absolutely wonderful moments. They really did tie everything together in a sustained and creative way. I'd pay special attention to the end, when Declan is all enthusiastic about the "puzzle" that he's created for Bobby. ON a few reviewings, it does indeed seem to be a deliberate reference to Eames' "This isn't one of your puzzles." Goren might not have seen what she was trying to tell him, then. But now he is put in the position of being the one profiled, the one puzzled out, and that kicks his understanding of humanity on to a new level. I did not see him as passive in this episode. I saw him as maturing, and that and the growth or restoration we saw in his relationship with Eames, beautifully played by both actors, was nothing short of stunning.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Aug 26, 2008 10:49:07 GMT -5
Dragonsback, thank you for discerning the spirit in which my comments are intended. ITA w/ you about the weight gain probably NOT being deliberate, but I'm throwing the droolingfangirls a bone, lol. And ITA that said gain has adversely affected the charaterization of Goren. I haven't seen any photos of VD, so I'll take Patcat's owrd for it that he is being made to look especially unkempt on the show. That is likely the case. How much is art, and how much is cheesecake, I couldn't guess. It is what it is. I find droolingfangirls very creepy personally, and my guess is that no matter how much they fantasize that VD is reading and someday will say "That girl understands me, let me find her, and let us live happily every after....." I believe were he to give a sh!t about any of this, he'd probably be more impressed of the disection of his method, his craft, rather than slavish devotion to an ideal the man could not possibly live up to. No one likes to be a dissapointment!
The actor has chosen to do some risky things with his personalization of this character. Some work for the character, some do not. That is what I am referring to in this forum. I refuse however, to censor my comments to avoid bruising juvinille crushes. There probably are sites devoted to fan worship, and I would respect their charter purpose and not pee in their proverbial cornflakes. Here, at this site, I enjoy the reasoned, *forthright* analysis of all the content, even when we disagree.
Patcat: you may be right about R&R. I think it classic L&O ambiguity. AEB, Jack and Claire, did they or didn't they? LOL. I kind of like them together actually, but it feels like Ross dumped her to me. She seems vunerable around him in a way we have never seen her with anyone else. I feel like whatever their current relationship, Ross has the upper hand. He is ever so slightly patronizing to her, and she is ever so slightly demure in response. Rodgers has never been demure before. It is subtle, and I may be projecting b/c if I were a L&O character, I'd be Rodgers, lol. We are a lot alike. In any event, I definately get teh sense that she is not confident in her status with him. She regained some measure of confidence in her role as the ME, refused to divulge specifics about the test, but part of her capitulation in acknowledging the test felt like she wsa trying to appease him in a way that was motivated by insecurity. Oh, who knows. We'll find out in S8 I guess.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
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Post by lovesong on Aug 26, 2008 11:05:39 GMT -5
I don't feel the same way (I think that Rodgers has shown some genuine regard toward Goren). I am not sure, however, if that would be the worst thing. Does Rodgers trust Goren? We don't know. Does she work for a living? Yes. Any working woman has to look first her career. Yes, even Eames. Visual or not (and I am sorry to disagree with people whom I hold in esteem here)--think carefully about how you would feel if you got a letter about your weight. I bet you VDO would feel the same way, even if he is a celeb. Tall guys age tend to age that way, and guys with some of his ethnic traits' faces get like that at a certain age. I should know ... hope no one minds my putting my oar in. I am not the world's biggest Vincent fancier (others can claim that title), but I feel for anyone in our culture who is put under the microscope physically, as we tend to. I'm a little concerned about it. Diablo, excellent point about Frank not answering to Goren. And then there was that scene where Donny's mother chides Goren for not doing anything for Donny. So terribly poignant when Goren had done everything for the sake of the family he never had. Obviously, Donny is being left out there for future use *s* ... I keep coming back to this episode. Sleight of hand, yes, and one might (or might not) have wanted Nicole's demise to be more flashy, but it had some absolutely wonderful moments. They really did tie everything together in a sustained and creative way. I'd pay special attention to the end, when Declan is all enthusiastic about the "puzzle" that he's created for Bobby. ON a few reviewings, it does indeed seem to be a deliberate reference to Eames' "This isn't one of your puzzles." Goren might not have seen what she was trying to tell him, then. But now he is put in the position of being the one profiled, the one puzzled out, and that kicks his understanding of humanity on to a new level. I did not see him as passive in this episode. I saw him as maturing, and that and the growth or restoration we saw in his relationship with Eames, beautifully played by both actors, was nothing short of stunning. I respect and agree with your ascertation that we as a western culture put too much emphasis on appearance. I never mentioned BGs weight when he was only 20lbs overweight back in the day. It didn't, IMO, impact the character then and bashing the actor for failing to meet the norm popularized by his industry would have been simply mean spirited. 80+ pounds is another kettle of twinkies. I jest. But seriously, we aren't talking about too many mojitos and a pot belly, ala Logan. We are talking about a significant change. Specifically, we are tlaking about how said change has affected the character. Personally, I don't care one iota how it has affected the actor. His choices and his consequences, same as me, my choices, and the fact that post vacation, my jeans are snug. :shrug: As I said, if we are going to talk about Rodgers' red vs blonde, new windows in the interrogation room, and Eames blue jeans, we get to talk about drastic changes other charaters make without being scolded. I am not bashing Vincent Donofrio. I am actually pretty indifferent to Vincent Donofrio. I am very interested, however foolish it may be, in this show, and this character. I'm not letter writing either. And I got a PM that made me want to clear something up, lol. I am not named lovesong because I "love" BG. I was shocked that someone assumed that and then accused me of disloyalty, rotflol. Lovesong is my personalized license plate, the car a gift from my dh (who himself is about 20 pounds overweight. ) I don't knnow why it bugs me that my name might be thought to be some sort of fan worship in itself, I may have to change it.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 26, 2008 11:12:10 GMT -5
I just want to add about the weight thing, being a person who has gone from 400 lbs to 220, it's not easy to say yeah you need to lose weight, I am 46 and have battled the weight all my life, for health reasons he should lose weight. But people telling him and wanting to isn't easy. I had problems with the comment saying he needed gastric bypass. I had gastric bypass, Its not a quick fix, it's dangerous and you can have serious problems with it, and it is designed for the morbidly obeses, VDO is not. He probably could stand to lose 50 or more lbs, but not 100 or more, which the surgery is made for. If losing weight was as easy as needing too, we would all be thin. And people harping on people weight, makes fat people fatter. And as a person who has been picked on and who has a daughter who has been picked on,( and some know about her condition due to that) it just ruffles my feathers to read about it. I now need surgery for a very large hernia that has occured due to my gastric by pass, but doctor wants me to lose 40 more pounds, after losing 180 you think that would be easy, but it's not. Now I look pregnant, with this hernia the size of a football in my abdomen. sorry for the OT, off my soap box.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 26, 2008 11:20:29 GMT -5
Just my overweight opinion here....(because I am fat).
I can't speak for others, but for myself I come here to read and post. I sometimes agree with other posters, sometimes not. I post how I feel about the show/actors/etc. from my own personal point of view. The cast of this show are part of what is open to discussion. Either pro or con, it is not disloyal to voice something negative. It is an opinion.....right or wrong it is merely that. And until the mods say we can't post our negative opinions along with our positive ones, then I will call 'em like I see 'em. I hope other posters will continue to do the same. It sure will get boring in here if everyone posts "I think he is so cute" "I adore VDO" "Vincent Vincent Vincent". Blecccckkkk! Gimme some good old fashioned opinions!!!! I love the back and forth we can engage (no pun intended) in with no hard feelings.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 26, 2008 11:54:30 GMT -5
Lovesong--I don't find anything hostile in your comments re. Mr. D'Onofrio's weight. (And I am also a large person.) I just wanted to note that he looks much better as himself than Goren, and I hope we might see that reflected next season.
I have no desire for this to become a fan site for Vincent D'Onofrio. It's one of the reasons I don't post much at the USA site.
Although, mind you, if Mr. D'Onofrio had turned up at my apartment on a cold and rainy night during his single days....
Patcat
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Aug 26, 2008 12:14:26 GMT -5
Just a quick question: Can someone tell me what Bobby says in Ross' office when Ross asks him about his father? The lines before Eames says "this is not what this is about". Somehow I can't understand him.
Thanks.
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