SEE ME: Episode of the Week

[Patcat]

Well, no takers for last week's offering. Let's see if anyone is interested in this one.

Will air October 23 at 4am (EST) on the USA Network. Also that day in syndication.
The 13th Episode of the Second Season. First aired Feb. 9, 2003.

Written by Jim Stirling and Rene Balcer.
Directed by Steve Shill

Guest actors:
Shuler Hensley as Jeff
Christopher Evan Welch as Dr. Tom Dysart

Synopsis: A murder behind the Mayor's residence leads Goren and Eames to exploitation of the mentally ill and an eye doctor with a personal agenda for his experimental treatments.

Quotes:

Goren (pointing at a painting in Dysart's office): "Are you a fan or are these up here to convince your patients they have eye problems?"
Dysart: "I put them up to invite ridiculous questions."

Eames (describing the results of tailing a van): "They drove around for half an hour and then went back to Garcia House."
Goren: "They let one of them out. He had to go to the bathroom, so they let him take a pee off the pier."
Deakins: "Off the pier? That's compassion!"

Jeff: "Up is down. Down is up. I know the tricks. You're him. He's you."

Dysart: "What the hell do you think you're doing?"
Eames: "I'd ask you the same thing, but the answer would probably make my hair stand on end."

Goren: "The story is that Van Gogh gave his ear to a prostitute as a token of love. But who knows what he was really thinking?"

Goren: "I know it's hard to stay on your meds. It's like your head is wrapped in a wet blanket. But if you go off them, well, that's when the trouble starts."

Garcia: "It's a wonderful painting. So full of hope."
Goren: "Well, it certainly is, umm...full of something."

Carver: "I won't go near a grand jury if your only evidence is the ramblings of a deranged individual."
Goren: "How about the ramblings of ten deranged individuals?"

Queries:

I believe this is the episode where we learn more of the specifics regarding the condition of Goren's mother. Did this knowledge change your view and reaction towards Goren? If so, how? How important is his mother's illness to Goren's makeup? Does Goren do enough for his mother? Too much?

Do Goren's experiences with his mother give him insights that another detective might not have? Do they help particularly with this case?

What do Eames, Carver, and Deakins know about Goren's mother at this point? How do they react?

What are Eames, Carver and Deakins' reactions to the mentally ill?

In the original discussion about this episode, Techguy speculated that Goren might have had some small hope in Dysart's treatments. What do others think about this?

Is Dysart a bad man?

Are the Garcias bad people?

How did Dysart manage to hide his schizophrenia? Is he even aware he's ill?

Has Goren remained in touch with Dysart?

Comments: An intriguing and troubling story from the show's remarkable second season. It's marked by several strong guest performances, notably by Shuler Hensley and Christopher Evan Welch. As the eye doctor, Welch is stunningly sane until he unravels in the final interrogation. Hensley, who's a splendid character actor with a fine baritone singing voice and was the best thing in that mess of a movie VAN HELSING (he played Frankenstein's monster), creates a character from a few lines and has a wonderful exchange with Mr. D'Onofrio. It's an episode I find sad and haunting. I wonder what will happen to the residents of Garcia House. I wonder what will happen to Tom Dysart. And I'm left with the sight of Bobby Goren rushing off to take care of his mother, a sight that seems even sadder with what I now know.

Patcat

[outerbankschick]

I believe this is the episode where we learn more of the specifics regarding the condition of Goren's mother. Did this knowledge change your view and reaction towards Goren? If so, how? How important is his mother's illness to Goren's makeup? Does Goren do enough for his mother? Too much?

I think that this episode showed his compassion for the mentally ill more than any other. His mother's illness clearly affected him deeply, though I don't think it necessarily shaped who he is. I do think that because of it, he has a deeper empathy for those who are battling mental illness. I also think he did as much for his mother as he could. I never got the sense that he did too much. In Season 6 he was dealing with her cancer and that took a huge toll on him. I never saw him as a "mama's boy" per se. Just as the sole caretaker and someone who was always depended on because he was always dependable.

Do Goren's experiences with his mother give him insights that another detective might not have? Do they help particularly with this case?

Yes, on both counts.

What do Eames, Carver, and Deakins know about Goren's mother at this point? How do they react?

It seems as though Deakins and Eames are a bit more sympathetic to Bobby's point of view. They have more sensitivity to the fact that he has a unique perspective, whereas Carver (at first) seems to be reserved and unwilling to listen to people who are mentally ill as opposed to the Garcia's, whom he respects. He puts them on a pedastal and (of course) they fall off of it. Carver's lack of understanding seems to be because he doesn't know about Bobby's mother. I am not sure in the end if he realizes it, either, because Alex says "don't ask" when he asks where Bobby is going.

In the original discussion about this episode, Techguy speculated that Goren might have had some small hope in Dysart's treatments. What do others think about this?

I thought so, too, when I first saw this episode. And each time I watch it, I still see it. Bobby looks a bit wistful when he talks to Dysart about it. As though he wishes it could be that simple.

Is Dysart a bad man?

I don't think he is. He did what he did out of a need to understand his own illness, to somehow find a way to "fix" the problem for himself and others. I think his mental illness made it difficult for him to see past the wrongness of his actions because his motive was so pure.



Are the Garcias bad people?

They may not have started out that way, when they first opened Garcia House, but that's how they ended. They became blinded by their greed.

How did Dysart manage to hide his schizophrenia? Is he even aware he's ill?

I think he's aware he's sick, but he's in denial about it.

Has Goren remained in touch with Dysart?

I'd like to think he has.

[DonnaJo]

If I remember correctly, the only mention at this point of Frances' mental illness was the taunting referral to Carmel Ridge by Nicole Wallace and whether or not Bobby was "ashamed" of his mother. It left us wanting more info about Bobby's mom, and "See Me" delivered. For LOCI at the time, it was an enormous amount of personal info.

I agree that Goren was hugely sympathetic to the patients at Garcia House. His interrogation of Jeff, especially the foot scene in the cell, shows how understanding he is and how much he knows about schizophrenic individuals. And for that split second when interrogating Dysart, Goren dared to hope that he indeed had found a cure for the disease.

That final scene when Bobby is at the phone and leaves in a rush, obviously upset and worried - it tells us everything in just a few seconds about what Goren's life is like dealing with his mother. Such a fantastic scene, so subtle, yet so powerful.

I miss that subtlety in LOCI. I really do.

[dragonsback]

Subtlety you betcha, for all the reasons mentioned above, and it makes this episode evergreen each time I see it. Yes, it was subtle, and tragic, and also witty - the scene in the doctor's office when Goren bamboozles the doc's secretary into accessing his computer by clumsily ransacking the files (akin to his bull-in-a-china-shop routine in Chinoisserie), is pure Goren, pure delight.

[tjara]

I saw this episode about two weeks ago, but it's such a intense episode, I had to go back an rewatch and I had to take time to digest it before I could post. For me it is one of the outstanding episodes, if not my favorite.

I like the fact we get a scope of crazy people and not all are acting "crazy". There's Jeff, rather paranoid and stereotypically crazy, there's Emily, weird, withdrawn, but not acting crazy, and then there's Dysart, who seems to be functioning quite well - and we find out he is really crazy. But he treated regular people, too, and I bet he did just fine. And while I know Dysart wasn't medicated, I'd like to point out in fact there are many schizophrenics that are medicated and functioning okay. They manage their daily routine, and I think that's where Frances was at between her frist crises when Bobby was a child and sometime around the early or mid-1990s. This is not to say that she didn't have troubles, she sure did, but I also think there's a rather recent point (before the show starts, but probably after or around the time Bobby left the Army) where her condition took a dive, warranting her admission to Carmel Ridge.

I also think that Dysarts delusion is so absolutely chilling. He's in denial about his condition yet aware of it, and he's in denial about the illness itself, reducing it to but one factor (I think that's how Bobby figures out that something is wrong.) I do not know how much everybody knows about schizophrenia, and I certainly am no expert, but from reading around on the web, I gather the following. First off, there's many variations of this dissease, yet in general the people afffected by this illness will show so called "positive" and "negative" symptoms. In a nutshell, positive symptoms are those are aren't present in other people, like hallucinations and thought disorder. Negative symptoms are deficits, like the lack of communcation skills, depression and an inability to "feel" (blunt affect). There are forms of this illness in which only one set of symptoms will be present, yet I think this shows how oblivious Dysart really is. He reduces the illness to the hallucinations, and that's just not true. And I think that's how Bobby catches him.

The only major mistake that I see in this episode is Van Gogh. This episode suggests he was schizophrenic, but truth is that his condition is not yet sure. It's a matter of controversy and discussion, and I would've liked them to acknowledge that, too.

Does Goren do enough for his mother? Too much?

I think he thinks he never does, but I think he does all he can. He visits her regularily, and he talks to her regularily. He's her primary caretaker and keeps her affairs in order. But he does have a life, at this point, that really changes only when she's diagnosed with cancer later on.

Do Goren's experiences with his mother give him insights that another detective might not have? Do they help particularly with this case?

Yes, absolutely. He knew something was fishy about Dysart because he knows a lot about this dissease, and he knew the Garcia's weren't truthful for the same reason. He figured out Jeff because of his extra knowledge... Someone not familiar with schizophrenia might've missed that. I also think that his compassion and understanding for this dissease shows in this episode, and maybe someone else would'nt have been able to deal with the people the same way.

What do Eames, Carver, and Deakins know about Goren's mother at this point? How do they react?

I think Eames and Deakins are in the loop. Deakins probably has been ever since (without specifics, just the general knowledge), and he talked to Eames about it at some point. It seems that she didn't know in the first Season, definitely not in "The Faithful", when he makes the first reference to his mother (albeit a very clouded one). Then there's the mention in "Seizure", and I still think she didn't know then, but that's probably when she asked him. I have yet to see Anti-Thesis to support that idea, but by "See Me", she knows. Carver doesn't know, so we gather that he didn't watch Dysarts interrogation, because Bobby mentions his mother in it.

What are Eames, Carver and Deakins' reactions to the mentally ill?

Carver is careful, if not scared or intimiated. He definitely wouldn't know how to treat someone with a mental illness. I think there's more than legal considerations to his position. I didn't see any special viewpoint on Deakins' part, but Eames seems to be sympathetic towards mentally ill people and does regard them as credible. It leads me to think that she probably discusses this topic with Bobby at some point during or prior to this episode.

In the original discussion about this episode, Techguy speculated that Goren might have had some small hope in Dysart's treatments. What do others think about this?

I see that a flickering of hope as Bobby listens, but then it's like reality hits him. He knows that illness is not that simple!!

Is Dysart a bad man?

No. He's ill. He's in denial about his condition, but then he really thinks he's helping those people. I even tend to believe that once he's medicated to end his delusions (the common treatment for schizophrenia) he will return to a regular life. Not without supervision, but he'll do ok.

Are the Garcias bad people?

Yes!! Taking it out on the weakest people...

How did Dysart manage to hide his schizophrenia? Is he even aware he's ill?

He is aware of his illness - but he wasn't aware what part of him was ill. And I think there wasn't that much to hide. Sometimes these people do not suffer from "hallucinations" or "disorientation" all the time and sometimes they only show "mild" delusions. With him it seemed to be a kind of constant undercurrent... and he wasn't paranoid, like some others (Frances shows Paranoia in TWAH, and Jeff seems pretty paranoid)

Has Goren remained in touch with Dysart?

I don't think so.

And I'm left with the sight of Bobby Goren rushing off to take care of his mother, a sight that seems even sadder with what I now know.

VDO really performs in this episode. It's subtle, not as "overdone" (meant positively!) as some of his later performances in Goren-centered episodes. He takes us through a variety of emotions, and he shows how involved Goren is and how important this is to him. And the end is just heart-wrenching...

[Patcat]

I can't cite it off the top of my head, but I read that 25% of those sufferering a schizophrenic episode can be treated and never suffer from another episode. Roughly 50% can manage the illness with medication and treatment, but will suffer further episodes in their lives. And 25% don't respond to any medication and treatment and will have to have some care for the rest of their lives.

Patcat

[idget]

Hi all, I feel I can speak on this subject since I am a nurse in a psychiatric hospital. Schizophrenia is a life long debilitating illness that effects the whole family. One usually shows the first signs of illness in the late teens or early twenties. It is referred to as a first break. It usually happens during times of stress or drug use. Using drugs does not cause schizophrenia but if you are predisposed to schizophrenia it will bring it on faster. Less than 1% of the population suffers from true schizophrenia. One can have a paranoid personality but it is not schizophrenia. There is also an illness called schizo-affective disorder that is not as severe as true schizophrenia and has aspects of bipolar behavior.(what some might call manic depressive disorder) To be diagnosed with any of these disorders a psychiatrist will use the DSMR IV manual. One has to have so many of the symptoms of the listed disease to be diagnosed. Tjara is right about there being positive symptoms and negative symptoms. Positive symptoms include auditory and visual hallucinations, ( auditory hallucinations usually involves voices telling the person very negative things about themselves and are very unpleasant) delusions which usually are persecutory in nature or religious in nature, ie thinking the FBI is after you or believing you are an angel sent to save people, they can also believe that they are receiving messages from the TV or radio.
The negative symptoms include a blunted or flat affect, which means they show very little feeling, and are no longer able to sympathize with others or to show or express empathy. The negative symptoms are usually the hardest for family members to deal with. The caring and close relationships parents and siblings used to share with the patient are no longer possible. Schizophrenia is like any illness and needs to be managed with medications. There is no cure for schizophrenia, once you have it you have it. Some respond really well to medications and some not so well. The old line anti-psychotic medications like Thorazine and haldol have really bad side effects, such as restlessness, drooling, feelings of your muscles tightening and can make your jaw lock and your eyes to go up in your head. One usually took cogentin or benadryl daily to prevent these symptoms or lessen them. As you can imagine the biggest reason for hospitalization is noncompliance with meds. Today there are newer anti-psychotic medications in which the side effects are usually negligible, such as zyprexa, geodon and seroquil. The actor who portrayed Jeff in this episode did a really good job in portraying a schizophrenic. The dysart character did a good job in portraying the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, but it is highly unlikely that a true schizophrenic could finish medical school or even practice medicine. These people usually need reminders to shower and wear clean clothes, that one could exhibit such organization to finish medical school or practice medicine is highly improbable.

[Patcat]

Idget--Thank you for your contribution. I'd be interested in your take on how well LOCI depicted Frances Goren's schizophrenia.

Regarding Dysart--I believe he had his first break after he finished medical school.

Patcat

[DonnaJo]

Idget - your information on schizophrenia is so appreciated! ;D

And I would like to second Patcat's request. If you have seen enough of the Frances Goren episodes, could you render us your opinion on how accurately Rita Moreno & the writers portrayed her as a true schizophrenic?

[Techguy]

Thanks from me too Idget for your very valuable and relevant information about schizophrenia.

"See Me" is another of my favorite CI episodes, especially because we got to know a lot about Goren's mother's illness via his empathy with the perp/murder suspect. This is the aspect of Goren's personality, one of his greatest gifts, that I miss so much in the G/E episodes from the last 2 seasons or so. I hope Goren's recovery includes a return to his ability to solve crimes in this most personal and unique way.

[tjara]

Hey idget, thanks so much for your insight!
And I'd like to second Patcat's and DonnaJo's request.

Patcat is right, Dysart had finished medical school, it was the speciality he changed after his first break. Though I thought he was rather of the "Paranoid" type, only positive symptoms (hallucinations), no negative symptoms. Now that you mention it, idget, he did seem fairly "untouched" by Bobby's interrogation at first. Though I'd say he was very organized...
... but I guess this is also were creative license comes to play a part.

I always thought that what seemed to be Frances rather "cool" attitude towards her son was part of the negative symptoms, part of the blunt affect. And I wonder whether she had to be taken off her medication in order to receive chemo?
Though she seems to have psychotic breaks when under stress, anyway (so I gather from ITWSH, without actually having seen the ep).

[idget]

Hi all, I have to work a 12 shift tonight so I have to make this short but I wanted to quickly respond to your questions. Tjara, I saw Dysarts not having any close friends (Goren and Eames had to go back to medical school to find anyone who knew him), his inability to see his patients as people, but subjects to be tested on, and his showing no remorse over his killing of the other doctor to be perfect examples of his depersonalization, in other words his inability to form connections with others. All which speak to me as negative symptoms. Though it did mention visual and auditory hallucinations he may have suffered from during his psychotic break( hence his belief that operating on the eyes will stop the visual hallucinations) he never showed that he was currently experiencing them. Believe me, most schizophrenics respond to their voices and visions. They carrying on a whole conversations with them, but of course we can only hear their side.
As To Rita Moreno's depiction of Francis Goren's Schizophrenia, I thought she did a pretty good job. Francis has had the benefit of the three most important things that schizophrenics need and that is medications, stability and routine, and family support. The worst thing that ever happened to the mentally ill was the deinstitutionalization that occurred during the 70's and 80's. It was a noble idea that these people could operate with little supervision and integrate into the community in residential care facilities, but the money and community support was never there and now a lot of these people are in prison or homeless. Sorry about that rant, it is a sore spot with me. But to get back to Francis Goren, living in a facility she most assuredly was medication compliant, had people that cared for her and made sure she tended to her ADL's (activities of daily living). So she was probably high functioning unless she came under undo stress, such as the incident mentioned in the Wee Small Hours of the Night, in which she had to be restrained and given medication by injection (which is never pleasant for the patient or the staff). So I thought it was well depicted that she was paranoid, such as her fear of the doctors and nurses not treating her right and her insistence that Bobby be there with her. Also her idealized delusional ideas about Frank seemed to rang true to. As to whether she could be on psychotropic meds while receiving chemotherapy, that I am not sure about and will have to do some research, but off the top of my head I would say they would not be contraindicated.
One more comment about Dysart, after switching his specialty he would have to go through a residency program, which would last several yrs. That he would be able to do so suffering from schizophrenia is highly improbable. Wow, I wrote a lot more than I meant to, but hope this helps. Now, I have to get to bed!

[Patcat]

Idget;

Thank you again for your contributions. Would you mind some more questions about schizophrenia?

Patcat

[tjara]

Wow idget,

thanks for the info!
Your expertise is highly appreciated.
I wonder whether there's a headline for "See Me"... probably the Garcia-story would be the headline, tough...

I'll dig into that direction later...

[idget]

Patcat, I will try to answer any questions you may have. Tjara, I was talking with my attending physician last night and he said in most cases anti-psychotic meds can be taken with chemotherapy.