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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 7, 2009 21:18:22 GMT -5
An excellent episode, except for the annoying switch between heavily bearded Goren and stubble Goren in the second half. Do they think no one will notice?
More tomorrow, after the west coast has viewed it.
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Post by Techguy on Jun 7, 2009 23:37:49 GMT -5
I totally agree about the obvious difference in Goren's facial hair DonnaJo. He even looked much thinner in the face with the stubble compared to the full beard. It looked like parts of this episode were shot at different times, which is a bit disruptive in continuity.
I also feel the episode title gives away too much and telegraphs what will come, given the clues about the time since the aunt has seen the baby and the parents not having a more recent photo.
My first impression about Goren's behavior is that he still seemed very remote and detached, more than I would have expected from his involvement in the case of the kidnapping of a very young child. I thought that since connecting with Molly and other family members, the case would have affected him more visibly. However, now I believe it is very likely Goren knew, or at least strongly suspected, very early on that all was not as it seemed.
Despite my earlier complaints, this episode engaged me completely, and by the end I was emotionally drained. I will post more thoughts and a poll Monday night after some sleep and time for reflection.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 8, 2009 6:15:30 GMT -5
I agree with you Techguy. This episode was riveting, truly. It started off a little average, like a usual TV kidnapping does, but kept building & building with twists & turns that kept me on the edge, even though I knew the truth about the missing little girl. When that toddler from next door runs into the room (the same one from the family photo) - it was a wow moment. A few disappointments. The scene between Eames & her sister was missing. Why, I don't know. It could have been added, maybe in the teaser to be dealt with in another episode? I'm also deeply ambivalent about how Eames was so in charge and physically aggressive, and Goren was so passive. Eames runs around, gun up and ready, yelling orders, and Bobby tails behind with his weapon at his side? Mind you, I love when Eames is given props. But it always seems to be at the expense of Goren. Why can't the writers show both team members on the top of their game in the same episode, as they do on SVU and on the mothership? I also though the couple wasn't truly representative of a folie a duex. The husband obviously knew the baby was dead. It served his purposes to keep the truth hidden and to keep his wife drugged and confused about it. Lynn Redgrave was wonderful. So good portraying her character that I forgot who she was. Just like Rita Morino as Frances Goren. I can't say that about either Doris Robert's performance or Liza Minelli's in Season 6.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Jun 8, 2009 7:16:57 GMT -5
I totally agree about the obvious difference in Goren's facial hair DonnaJo. He even looked much thinner in the face with the stubble compared to the full beard. It looked like parts of this episode were shot at different times, which is a bit disruptive in continuity.
I also feel the episode title gives away too much and telegraphs what will come, given the clues about the time since the aunt has seen the baby and the parents not having a more recent photo.
My first impression about Goren's behavior is that he still seemed very remote and detached, more than I would have expected from his involvement in the case of the kidnapping of a very young child. I thought that since connecting with Molly and other family members, the case would have affected him more visibly. However, now I believe it is very likely Goren knew, or at least strongly suspected, very early on that all was not as it seemed.
Despite my earlier complaints, this episode engaged me completely, and by the end I was emotionally drained. I will post more thoughts and a poll Monday night after some sleep and time for reflection. I agree that Goren has been very detached from the cases he has had since being back at work. It may be VDO's portrayal of him this season. But I choose to think it is because Bobby has taken a step back from the cases he's worked. He might be in the middle of a burnout, or knew he was facing one and decided to take measures to prevent it. His letting Eames take the lead with the suspect last night seemed to confirm mys suspicions. I don't really think it's a bad thing. It's just how things are. One thing I worry about is that it's affecting his partnership with Eames. They seemed to be closer in "Frame" than they are now. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope the whole situation corrects itself or is mentioned before the end of the season.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 8, 2009 8:31:58 GMT -5
Well, Eames is the senior detective. And she's always taken the lead in the crime scenes. I felt very comfortable in watching her take charge of the crime scene and letting Goren do what he does best--examining the crime scene, finding the clues, putting things together.
The continuity was a problem with Goren's hair, and I think some of the scenes must have been filmed later. There could've been a lot of reasons for that--bad film processing, bad sound, etc.
Lynn Redgrave was wonderful in her far too few scenes. Her character was remarkable--I wouldn't have had the grace to get the personal assistant a lawyer.
Ross and Goren were remarkably civil to each other throughout this episode.
As for the plot (SPOILERS ahead)--I sensed that the baby didn't exist from the start. Part of this was because of the title; part because we never actually saw the baby. The photo of the mother and father with the child who turned out to be a neighbor raised my suspicions because that child didn't look anything like the father or mother. (Beautiful little girl, though.) I also suspected the assistant might have something to do with the false kidnapping. But I had a "Oh, no" moment when the mother was in front of the TV crying, "Children don't die" over and over, and I realized the baby had existed. And I had another "Oh, no" moment when I realized the mother had left the baby in the car on a hot day. So, I had a good idea where this trip was going, but the trip was interesting enough and there were enough twists and turns to surprise me.
Good heavens, but the mother and father were selfish, self centered people. And careless. I thought Eames was vibrating with anger during much of this episode. I don't care if you do have a baby monitor, you don't leave an 18 month old alone anywhere. (Yea, I know the baby didn't exist, but...) And then to leave a baby in a car! These people didn't deserve to have a child. The mother at least may have the excuse that she was ill, but the father...What a bastard. I think he's the real villain here.
So...any thoughts as to why Eames wasn't in the morgue with Goren at the end?
The sight of that terribly tiny tray with the baby's remains will haunt me for a while.
Patcat
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Jun 8, 2009 8:47:06 GMT -5
"So...any thoughts as to why Eames wasn't in the morgue with Goren at the end?"
hey Patcat have not seen the episode(we are still about 1 and half episodes behind in aus). but maybe thats when Alex is meeting her sister(maybe) would probably explain the begining of the previous episode,as for the missing scene there have been other episodes where certain scenes have not made the final episodes or where plot were vastly different to the synopises.
Rom.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 8, 2009 10:33:44 GMT -5
Finally! A script from G/E co-EP, the award-winning Michael J. Chernuchin (former mothership writing partner of Rene Balcer.) So many thoughts about this one, most positive. Chief among them: originality. I can't recall a villain (nor intent) similar to Andre in CI's history.
I need to view this episode again before I'm ready to write about it in detail.
AL
P.S. I agree about the discontinuity, both within this production and in context of Season 8. Apparently this was intended as the Christmas episode.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 8, 2009 10:53:20 GMT -5
I'm a bit unsure about Andre's motives (although, in this case, I don't mean that as a criticism. I think the audience was meant to be unsure). Was he attempting to get more money out of his aunt by using the child? Was that why he hid the child's death? Was he using the illusion of the child to keep control of his wife? Or was he trying to shield his wife from the horror of the child's death? Or all of the above?
Patcat
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 8, 2009 11:25:22 GMT -5
Such a sad sad episode. Tragic that the baby died due to a mother's sickness and the father let it all happen. The biggest jolt to me was that the baby's death was an accident, no criminal intent, just illness.
I too noticed Eames absence at the morgue at the end. Very unusual - but she was angry for a lot of the episode and maybe she'd had enough. Can't really imagine her dumping the job on him, though, since she's always with him. Would like to know the "backstory" on that.
My favourite part of the episode, on single viewing, was Goren's correction to "Homer Greek". Oh, man! That was so awesome. It had me doing the happy dance. Cheeky Bobby is still there - he just can't help himself but put pompous bastards in their place! (not that they would notice...) I could have hugged him!
The continuity thing was annoying. Guess they needed to go back and round out some of the storyline. Hard to put the facial hair back on after the shearing!! I'm sure some of us could have helped try. Strictly for the sake of visual continuity.....
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 8, 2009 12:34:46 GMT -5
I agree, Lynn Redgrave was way too under "utilized"!!!
Mind you, her character was only a small (but signifcant) part of the equation, in that she had the big bucks which everyone wanted.
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Post by aintnocrime on Jun 8, 2009 13:11:06 GMT -5
I'm a bit unsure about Andre's motives (although, in this case, I don't mean that as a criticism. I think the audience was meant to be unsure). Was he attempting to get more money out of his aunt by using the child? Was that why he hid the child's death? Was he using the illusion of the child to keep control of his wife? Or was he trying to shield his wife from the horror of the child's death? Or all of the above? Patcat I wasn't sure what was driving him, either. And how the "kidnapping" ball got rolling ... did he take advantage of overhearing the desk clerk talk about the fifth-floor robberies? Haven't seen Piper Perabo since that campy "Coyote Ugly." I wondered what had happened to her since the last time that turned up on cable. Oh, and the correction regarding "The Illiad" was brilliant.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 8, 2009 13:53:26 GMT -5
I thought Andre's motivation became clearer, as Chernuchin intended, with each scene.
His rich aunt was dying.
She clearly perceived Andre as the grasping fraud he was, but she considered his daughter -- the "only child in the family" -- her heir.
However her heir had died in a hot car six months ago, left there by a woman who was deeply disturbed by a cold, cheating, drifting husband.
Concerned only about losing his aunt's fortune, Andre preyed on his wife's mental weakness. He convinced her that "children don't die" and manipulated her into a cruel delusion while waiting for his aunt to expire. (Yes -- not a true "folie a deux.")
Rich aunt was adamant about seeing the child; the hotel burglaries gave Andre a "kidnapping" out.
In short, Andre was a brilliant, devious narcissist and (IMO) one of the worthiest criminals on CI in a long while.
Please Mr. Chernuchin, may we have some more?
AL
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Post by tjara on Jun 8, 2009 14:57:39 GMT -5
I don't think I can post anything very coherent yet, but this episode was so very sad. There wasn't the big surprise in this (I knew from the beginning that there was no baby anymore, we had all the clues plus the episode title), yet it was twisty enough to captivate me. As a dogowner, I always worry when it's warm and I leave the doggys in the car, never mind leaving a child there if only for a matter of minutes. Even at very low temperature's, cars seem to heat up quickly. It's so sad that this happened, and even sadder that the father decided to hide what had happened. Bobby really captured me in this episode. Yes, there were weaker moments, but what stood out to me was his discomfort when Eames had to follow the perp into the subway. He was almost biting the desk. I like how he and Ross work well together this season, it seems they've found a way to cooperate. And I like how he's getting back to himself - it is a pity that these eps have been aired out of order. If you put them in their actual order, it makes much more sense.
So we saw him picking a crime scene apart and boy, he moved in on the mother in the end. There was this spark in his eyes, and it hurt himself, too. He would've rather had if the story wasn't true, but Bobby always gets angry when there's emotionally challenged people and their manipulators at work. I also liked how this case unraveled, how they made it unfold. That was very good writing and I long for more of it. I wasn't bothered by the "outfit" change as much. I mean, he shaved and cut his hair, that's very possible, it would've been more difficult the other way around. And we don't know how soon they found the baby - finding a dead body after six months is pretty darn difficult. My sister's dog works in SAR, and never mind finding living people, dead people is way more difficult because there's so little scent, especially after this much time. That image of the small body bag will stay with me for a while. And it was so sad that even then, the father couldn't find words for his child, but had to borrow. The lighting seemed a lot better in this episode. And I liked how KE portrayed Eames - concerned, involved, but never over the top. I think Bobby thought quite early that the baby wasn't alive anymore. He has this sixth sense about people with emotional problems. They'd dropped enough clues to make me go "Yeah, this all adds up."
An excellent episode, and I can't wait to see it again for further observations.
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Post by tjara on Jun 8, 2009 15:05:38 GMT -5
On a sidenote, I can actually cite the first lines of the illiad, in metric verse and in ancient greek. I took that in school. My father can do that, too, and he's been out of school for 40 years.
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Post by idget on Jun 8, 2009 15:11:01 GMT -5
I absolutely loved this episode. The best of the season in my opinion. I thought Goren and Eames were working well together and that Ross seemed to take their conclusions well and showed trust in them, especially Goren. I liked that Goren is back to doing some of his signature moves such as noticing obscure details like the glass on the floor in all six hotel rms, also back to wandering about the room spotting important clues such as the book of poetry in Cecilia's home. I also liked how after wards you could see how he arrived at his conclusions. The assistant's boyfriend was British, the kidnapper said Happy Christmas. The mother used to keep the baby in the car with her, she used to go around to hotel rooms looking for her husband, the husband quit his job abruptly in summer, the mother was concerned about the temperature in the room. After wards it all made sense. The only thing I had actually figured out besides the baby not ever being in the hotel room was that Cecilia was somehow involved with Andre, I could see that from their reactions to each other during dinner. I loved how Goren said absolutely nothing but just with his look got the assistant to talk. I think what some people see as his disengagement I see as his new world weary attitude. I think after all he has been thru, he still wants to solve cases and catch the bad guys, but he no longer has the pure joy and enthusiasm he had for it before. He is still capable of getting angry though, I think he showed that in his final showdown with Andre. I agree with Annabelleigh's assessment of Andre and his motive. It was all about the money for him. The only thing I wondered was why he had married his wife in the first place. Perhaps it was because she got pregnant with Emma and he saw how excited his Aunt was over the prospect of a baby in the family. I also agree with everyone's opinion about Lynn Redgrave, she did a fabulous job. I wish she had more scenes. I also agree with Quietfireca, my favorite line of the whole show was "actually it's Homeric Greek". Like some people have mentioned I also noticed that Goren didn't seem as gung ho about chasing the thief as everyone else and that he seemed to be reacting more slowly than Eames with his gun in the parking lot and I did think that was strange. I also noticed the two scenes where Goren looked different. I think it might have helped in the first scene if they had Eames doing the talking and just have Goren in the background. With Goren doing the talking your attention is focused on him and it is really apparent that he no longer has a beard. They could get away with the scene at the end, because he could have shaved and cut his hair after they had solved the case. I think Katherine Erbe did a brilliant job in showing her anger and disgust with the parenting style of Andre and his wife and I think the reason she wasn't there at the end was because of how the case effected her.
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