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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 14:50:49 GMT -5
Post by cadesdad on Jan 17, 2010 14:50:49 GMT -5
First, a couple of disclaimers: I don't like Pat Robertson and never have, although I profess to be a follower of Christ. Second, I resent the term "bible thumpers"--it's a juvenile, derogatory term that paints with a large brush.
Now, that established, I deplore Robertson's comments on Haiti. He provided no evidence whatsoever to support his "true story" of Haiti "signing a pact with the devil." Also, his ties to despots in Africa are well documented in numerous sources. Also, Robertson has a history of apppropriating disasters--9/11, Katrina, among others--to promote his own agenda. What would Jesus do, indeed?
Let's look at the New Testment (which I will attempt to avoid the urge to thump). Jesus told the disciples that the death of a number of people in the collapse of a tower was not the result of sin; in fact, Jesus rather pointedly asked His followers whether they were any holier than the people killed in the collapse of the building. Also, on another occasion, Jesus informed the disciples that a man's blindness was not caused by his or his parents' sin (a common belief at the time for physical disabilities). Robertson's sweeping pronouncements about various disasters being manifestations of God's vengeance don't square with the Book he professes to live by.
I watched Jon Stewart's response to the comments made by Robertson and Rush Limbaugh on "The Daily Show." It was very damning that Stewart reminded Robertson of several scriptures that remind us that God is near those who are suffering--he shamed this self-professed "man of God." Also, I like Stewart's comments about Limbaugh--"The problem with his heart is that he doesn't have one."
The people of Haiti need physical, tangible aid from any agency that's in a position to assistant, religious or secular. Shame on anyone who uses this nightmare for his or her own gain.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 15:40:41 GMT -5
Post by outerbankschick on Jan 17, 2010 15:40:41 GMT -5
Thank you, Cadesdad, for that well-thought out post. I, too, am a Christian, and as I said, as someone in a position of leadership, Mr. Robertson has a responsibility to be careful what he says.
I also dislike the "bible thumper" term because it implies that those of us who view things through the prism of our faith are somehow less intelligent than others, which is highly insulting. Let us all remember that religions all over the world have many facets, and each one has its share of folks who say rather outrageous things now and then.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 15:55:59 GMT -5
Post by DonnaJo on Jan 17, 2010 15:55:59 GMT -5
Beautifully put, cadesdad. As always, there are people who give others a bad name. Robertson and his kind give Christians and those who follow the Bible a bad rep. Personally I don't believe is quoting Scripture - but to follow the essence of Christs' teachings, which is to love one another as you love yourself. Also to forgive, to turn the other cheek, and to do what you know in your heart is right. A common misconception by many is that God is responsible for everything that happens. That isn't exactly true. God did not cause this earthquake - it is a geological event. God does not give people cancer, or cause the car accident that kills a family of four. As OBC said, sh*t happen.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 16:26:01 GMT -5
Post by Cassie on Jan 17, 2010 16:26:01 GMT -5
Beautifully put, cadesdad. As always, there are people who give others a bad name. Robertson and his kind give Christians and those who follow the Bible a bad rep. Personally I don't believe is quoting Scripture - but to follow the essence of Christs' teachings, which is to love one another as you love yourself. Also to forgive, to turn the other cheek, and to do what you know in your heart is right. I quoted scripture, because it was the easiest way for me to express myself on the subject. Never did I say Pat Robertson was right on the money. Never! But what I did try to point out is maybe there was something to be heard in what he said. Just like in the days of Noah, Everyone who followed the crowd Donnajo, well they all drowned.
Had Pat Robertson said what he said, and everyone just went about their business and ignored the man they call a "fool". Instead of trashing him I wouldn't have even thought twice about what he had said. It's the loud cry of negative comments about him for what he said, which makes me wonder is there some truth to what he said. Most believers, believe that we are in the "end times". And if one person thinks twice about some things, then maybe Pat Robertson humiliation was worth it. At least is God's eyes it will be
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 16:49:36 GMT -5
Post by outerbankschick on Jan 17, 2010 16:49:36 GMT -5
Cassie, one thing I can tell you about the "end times" is that we have been in them since the Crucifixion. Although some believe that Israel becoming a state is one of the signs - and that could very well be true, however trying to ascribe a time-line as some do is faulty because as Jesus stated, no one knows the day or the hour, not even "the son of man".
What if we are being given warnings, as you say, but those warnings do not necessarily mean total destruction is imminent? What if those "warnings" are a call to return to our values, to stand on principal and refuse to play the world's game? What if, indeed, it is a call to prayer - and to turn from the bickering and the hatred and embrace one another as brothers/sisters?
I'm not going to sit here and hold forth on the destruction of the morals of society. I'm of the mind that society itself has probably had its morals compromised long before the modern-day. It's just that now things are not behind closed doors anymore. It's out there in the open, for all to see. I wonder, are things really "worse" than they used to be, or do we perceive them that way because now we can "see" them?
Although I will say that the divorce rate and the breakdown of the family unit has probably done more damage to us as a whole than anything else.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 18:48:14 GMT -5
Post by Metella on Jan 17, 2010 18:48:14 GMT -5
Cadesdad & others - nice post & you put into better words the connection with the new testament that I had in mind. Pat R and others who use the bible, quotes from it and then rant and berate and point out "non believer's sins" are the bible thumpers. And I do see it as a negative moniker. But since I don't even remember ever reading a post from you, you can surely feel safe in knowing it wasn't aimed at you or others who are discussing their thoughts on the board. I see them (bible thumpers) as a separate sub-set of christians; the nasty ones I get offended when I see bible quotes anywhere in public - but I think that is part of the good thing of our society that people who are moved to quote the bible can and I can live with being offended since I tend toward Taoism as my faith. The offense is light and I hope that we all will be able to converse about any subjects.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 19:01:59 GMT -5
Post by DonnaJo on Jan 17, 2010 19:01:59 GMT -5
Like you, Metella, I also wasn't aiming my comments about not believing in quoting Scripture at anyone here. My comments were aimed at Mr. Robertson and his kind, which are other nasty, racist individuals. No one here is anything like that.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 20:37:31 GMT -5
Post by maherjunkie on Jan 17, 2010 20:37:31 GMT -5
Maybe some families should be busted up, OBC.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 21:12:48 GMT -5
Post by trisha on Jan 17, 2010 21:12:48 GMT -5
Cassie, wikipedia is not just edited by liberals and atheists, but everyone who has a vested interest in the subjects availabe. You can be sure that Pat Robertson has had his people all over that page.
Also, the material I quote is all SOURCED. They are FACTS. Not even Pat Robertson can lie, pay or pray his way out of them.
I personally HATE having scripture quoted to me. People who do that are what I call "bible beaters" -- they beat other people over the head with their version of God's word.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 21:21:26 GMT -5
Post by cadesdad on Jan 17, 2010 21:21:26 GMT -5
Metella, I appreciate the clarification. I don't post here very often, so I'm not suprised my moniker is unfamiliar. I agree that one of the freedoms Americans enjoy is not simply freedom of religion but also freedom from religion. That is not my perception of the world, but atheists and agnositics have as much right to their beliefs as I do to mine. I also dislike public displays of Scripture, particularly when the message is distorted or when it is used in the service of a personal or political agenda (politicians who cite "God's Word" while cheating on their spouses). I am also troubled by the anti-intellectualism that I see in some Christian camps these days--that faith and reason are incompatible. I disagree--I agree with John Donne who in "Holy Sonnet 14" referred to reason as God's "viceroy." What has always bothered me about political Christian leaders like Robertson and Jerry Falwell is how their political agendas seemed to supersede their compassion and caring for others, which I believe are the most Christlike qualities a person can possess. Jesus talked as much or more about caring for the poor and disenfranchised as He did about heaven. While I do not accept the arguments of someone like Christopher Hitchens, I certainly understand the cynicism and disgust with which some people view Christianity--it has become identical in many people's minds with political conservatism, which limits and sometimes corrupts the richness and paradoxical beauty of the teachings of Christ. It becomes exclusive rather than inclusive--"I'm saved, you're not, and you deserve whatever you get." That is hardly an inviting or hopeful message. Sorry for rambling, but I though much about my beliefs over the last few days, and I have felt an intense anger toward Robertson and others. Are these the last days? I don't have a clue, but I can't focus so much on waiting for Jesus to return that I forget to be kind and compassionate in the moment.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 21:23:22 GMT -5
Post by outerbankschick on Jan 17, 2010 21:23:22 GMT -5
I'd be able to agree with you, MJ, in some cases. However, I'd also have to say that if people are not capable of being truly committed, through thin times and thick, they should stay lovers that are not married. Once you pledge your life to another you have a responsibility to that person. You should keep your word, barring adultery or abuse. Those two things should never be tolerated.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 21:38:16 GMT -5
Post by trisha on Jan 17, 2010 21:38:16 GMT -5
Wonderful post, cadesdad I actually think there are more Christians like you in the US and the world in general. It's unfortunate that the extremists get all the attention and ruin the reputations of good people by association.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 21:47:53 GMT -5
Post by maherjunkie on Jan 17, 2010 21:47:53 GMT -5
In a way I agree with you OBC, but sometimes the feeling just dies.
Wonderful post Cadesdad. I have a hard time reconciling some stories in the bible with reason but you express yourself beautifully.
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Haiti
Jan 17, 2010 22:45:45 GMT -5
Post by Cassie on Jan 17, 2010 22:45:45 GMT -5
Maybe some families should be busted up, OBC. Dr Phil would agree with you but, I have also heard that if you stay and work it out. It's far more sweeter in the end.
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Haiti
Jan 20, 2010 19:46:02 GMT -5
Post by Techguy on Jan 20, 2010 19:46:02 GMT -5
Thanks from me too, Cadesdad, for your thoughtful and articulate post in defense of what it really means to be a Christian. You are correct to juxtapose the New Testament against Pat Robertson's cruel racist remarks.
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