|
Post by Patcat on Jan 13, 2011 9:25:13 GMT -5
The question of Nicole Wallace and whether she was the best villain in LOCI has appeared in the "Reading the Tea Leaves" thread. I thought this subject might be worthy of its own thread.
Was Nicole the best villain? Was her ending worthy of her?
And any other questions and comments you might have about the Evil One.
Patcat
|
|
kacesq
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 194
|
Post by kacesq on Jan 13, 2011 9:49:29 GMT -5
Yay, I was hoping this would branch off into a separate discussion...
I could write a dissertation on my dislike for Nicole Wallace, but I'll spare everyone. To answer your questions...
No, I didn't feel she was the best villain we had on CI.
I preferred the Nicole gets killed ending of Great Barrier to Frame, but I'll take any end to Nicole that I can get.
I enjoyed Anti-Thesis when it first aired, but I remember not liking the ending when Nicole got away. It just seemed off to me. I was satisfied with POI because I thought that was a fitting end to Nicole.
But Nicole's acquittal and subsequent reappearances have left me with such a bitter distaste for the character that the mere introduction of her in S2 taints that whole season for me and is probably the reason why I rank S1 as my alltime favorite season.
I understood that CI was trying to tell me that Nicole was this smart, intriguing villain who got to Goren like no one else. But I never felt it. I was never impressed with Ms. D'Abo's performance and it seemed to me her whole key to getting to Goren was mentioning his mother. After Anti-Thesis and POI, the subsequent encounters between them just got worse and worse - pale imitations of Anti-Thesis, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by jeffan on Jan 13, 2011 10:14:56 GMT -5
LOL Patcat - I don’t consider Nichole the “Evil One” - surely that title belongs to the Chief of Detectives (don’t know his name or title) who attempted to engineer Goren’s downfall?
I claimed she is the best villain in the show as she was the one who always eluded a final arrest by Goren. She knew how to play him and the system. My only wish was that the writers had given Eames a more combative interaction with Nichole.
I have watched/listened to some very sloppy writing on television and Nichole’s final story-line must be up there with the sloppiest. I do know that these were not the original writers, but I wish they had not resurrected the character and made her a caricature of her former self.
This character has already been spectacularly demolished so I would not like to see her return in Season Ten as that really would be criminal.
Contrary to the previous poster, I think Olivia D'Abo is a great actress. In fact, the scenes between her and Vincent have been some of the best in the whole show. These are two actors who complement one another in that they can make the television "spark" when they are in the same scene. I would like to see them working together in the future.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jan 13, 2011 12:57:28 GMT -5
My two bits (and then some) about Nicole. And I apologize--those of you who've been on this board for a while will have read a lot of this.
She was a brilliant idea. A young, attractive, slight woman who nearly always wore white who is Goren's intellectual equal and as ruthless in her desire to do evil as he is to do good. The product of what appears to be as damaging a childhood as Goren, she defines him in many ways. We learn a great deal about Goren from his encounters with Nicole. And it may be just a fluke of casting, but is it just a coincidence that the two most important women--indeed, two of the most important people--in Goren's life are petite blondes?
But Nicole loses her effectiveness as she makes more appearances. For one thing, unlike Bobby, who adapts and changes and is better able to take on her attacks, Nicole doesn't change. Her repertoire remains attacks on Bobby's mother's illness and comments about how Bobby is like her. Her escapes from justice become less and less realistic. Carver was a better ADA than to lose the case against her, no matter how much money her husband had. And once that husband was out of the scene, why didn't something happen to her? Her escape after GREAT BARRIER was simply silly, as was her return in GROW. Why wasn't she arrested and placed in jail at the start of GROW?
I must admit, however, that the seeming changes in Nicole in GROW returned her to be an interesting character. That she tried to help someone else, that she wanted a family--these things made her compelling and sympathetic.
While I miss the final confrontation I would'v liked between Bobby and Nicole, I found Declan Gage's killing of her in FRAME to be wonderufully ironic and appropriate. Gage takes away nearly everything from Bobby--his mother, his brother, even his bete noir (although he doesn't take away the two most important things--Eames and Bobby's work).
I like Ms. D'Abo and respect the way she made some of the most ridiculous moments believable. I agree that she and Mr. D'Onofrio had a real spark in their scenes together
But Nicole is far from the worst villain in LOCI. That dubious honor may go to Mark Ford Brady. Or Declan Gage. Or the Chief of Detectives. Or even, dare I write, Francis Goren.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by skittles4me on Jan 13, 2011 20:43:58 GMT -5
Ahhh Nicole!
She WAS evil but not heads above the other evil ones. She was an interesting villain because of the tension with Goren and the fact that she always got away (until she met Gage).
I wish she could have had at least one good, emotional confrontation with Eames too. I think that would have added a lot more depth to our understanding of both of their characters. We know about Nicole's childhood, but Eames hasn't had a fairytale life either. We do know Alex's heart has been broken and I think she has some more secrets that haven't been revealed to us.
In what we DID see, Nicole was like the "anti-Eames". In several scenes they are even dressed alike (both wearing white blouses or black jackets). Nicole taunts Bobby with comments/questions about his mother; Alex is a rock for him and supports him against Nicole. Bobby: She got me. She got me good. Alex: Then let's get her back!
(Patcat, what do you think is the significance of the white? I always thought that white meant "purity". In old movies the good guys wore white. How does this relate to Nicole? )
I agree that in "Grow" her love for Gwen and the fact that she took her to her aunt in the end made Nicole more sympathetic. However, Bobby was right. In "Frame" we saw that she really hadn't changed at all.
I'm glad she is gone and hope she stays that way!
Olivia D'Abo and VDO do have good chemistry on screen. They starred in the film "The Velocity of Gary" together as two porn stars.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Jan 13, 2011 23:31:21 GMT -5
My question is, how are we defining "worst" as applied to CI villains? Are we considering the villains we hate the most? If that criteria is applied, it's a no-brainer: Nicole is my most hated villain for most of the reasons Patcat stated. While she might have started off well, after "A Person of Interest" she became a joke, a one trick pony. IMO it would have been better if her appearances ended with this episode as she was dragged off to prison.
If, however, we are defining "worst" as the villain that was the most formidable adversary for Goren, it's a tie between Mark Ford Brady and Declan Gage. I have to also give props to Chesley Watkins in "To the Bone" although technically she's Logan's adversary and not Goren's. But as adversaries go, IMO Chesley >>>>>>> Nicole.
Then again, if pure evil is the defining crieria, it's a tie between Mark Ford Brady and Trudy Palmeranski from "Poison." Dishonorable mentions to the killers in "Shibboleth" and "The Posthumous Collection."
|
|
lola
Rookie
Posts: 43
|
Post by lola on Jan 14, 2011 0:32:41 GMT -5
I do not think Nicole is the best villain of LOCI. It appeared so to me at first because Goren is the leading character and she is his arch-nemesis; she is the opposite of him. She might be the only one to get real close to Goren and the only one to get away but the worst criminal, no. I do not think she was meant to be the best but was created to show Goren's soft spots. It is interesting to watch first seasons where he is strong, confidante and arrogant and someone so easily penetrates his armor. But she never really hurt Goren in way he could blame her for all the bad things happened to him. For me Jo Gage is way better than her. Jo hurt Goren much more then Nicole, she hurt him indirectly through his two important persons in his life (Eames and his mentor/father figure). She tortured and almost killed Eames (she will suffer the consequences for the rest of her life or at least a real person would). She crashed Goren's every illusions and feelings he might have about Declan Gage. I even think her acts started some ideas in her father’s twisted mind that grew over the years and made him want to regain Goren’s respect (or status of his father figure) by killing everyone he thought are dead weight for Goren. Yes Techguy, now I'm weighing in my mind who for me is most formidable: Jo Declan or Mark Brady. Who did the worst damage to our Bobby?
What characteristics must someone have to become the greatest villain of them all? -Cruelty ; Nicole wasn’t as cruel to me as Jo was, she didn’t use torture she was very discreet (using a syringe or in POI manipulation ). -Being able to get away, absolutely. But then Jo didn’t get away. -Lack of any kind of feeling towards the victims; yes, they both have that
Must a villain be a killer or are the ones that manipulate, contribute or incite the crime more sinister. I do not know. I guess what makes you scared more.
|
|
|
Post by Moonbeam on Jan 14, 2011 10:42:21 GMT -5
Her continued appearance weakened the original character as Patcat so eloquently stated. And lola, I agree. Originally I think she was created to expose Goren's weaknesses, a vehicle so to speak, to give the viewer some backstory on Goren. After her two initial aperances, things went south pretty fast.
My pick for best villian would be Terry Randolph ("Badge") and a nod to Richard Zaner ("Enemy Within").
|
|
|
Post by alliehalliwell on Jan 14, 2011 17:57:24 GMT -5
I don't think Nicole was THE best villain, but I think she was a good one. I think if she toyed with other people maybe and not just Goren it could have made her more threatening... I also think that without this, it seemed like her character was over exposed. She did the same old same old. I think "Grow" was an ep that had potential and yet they tried to make her like she had remorse even though her profile showed she didn't have any (just look at the lack of remorse for her daughter) and yet she cared for that girl in this ep? Seemed out of place. I think it would have been more shocking if they had her murder more people or got completely psycho or something. Um...just saying it would have made her seem scarier and therefore harder to predict. Something to that effect. If that makes sense... It could have made things more interesting and given her that title of Best Villain. Didn't like her final exit in the show but I don't want to see her again.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Jan 14, 2011 22:03:27 GMT -5
Is there any culture where white is regarded as a symbol of evil? In most Western societies, white is asign of purity and innocence, things Nicole certainly isn't.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by skittles4me on Jan 15, 2011 0:53:11 GMT -5
Is there any culture where white is regarded as a symbol of evil? In most Western societies, white is asign of purity and innocence, things Nicole certainly isn't. Patcat 'Kay. Did a little quickie research (google) and learned that in some cultures white represents death. Certainly is appropriate with Nicole!
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Jan 16, 2011 13:23:50 GMT -5
I definitely feel that Nicole was the "best" villain. Certainly the most interesting and colorful nemesis for Goren, even taking into account the lackluster "Grow" and the misuse of her character in "Frame." In the two Season 2 episodes "Anti-Thesis" and "A Person Of Interest," Nicole was brilliantly evil. Both top my list of all-time favorite episodes. But IMO, being the "best villain" isn't the same as being the most evil. For me, the sadistic killer from "Shibboleth" who bound and tortured his victims tops that list.
|
|
|
Post by outerbankschick on Jan 18, 2011 21:00:49 GMT -5
Nicole did have one hell of a sparring moment with Alex that I am surprised no one mentioned. In "Great Barrier" she poked Alex where it hurt the most and taunted her about her surrogacy.
"Not all of us can be blessed with eggs ripe and ready for hire. Tell me...did your sister give you a copy of the sonogram so you'd have something to cuddle up with at night?"
Watch this scene and look carefully at Alex's face. Listen to her voice shake when she answers, "I see my nephew...three times a week. Being pregnant was a great experience. Consider yourself robbed." There is a pause in there, while Alex is speaking, as she seeks to control her voice.
Nicole zinged her good, straight through the heart. A fan fic once described Alex as "the mother who wasn't a mother". That's her weakest point and Nicole knew it. As Bobby stated in "Grow" - Nicole has the ability to zero in on a person's weakness and the coldblooded willingness to exploit it.
Nicole may not have been the "best" villain...but she was my all time favorite. I loved to watch her and Bobby spar. And he got her so good in "Great Barrier" when he poked at her about her thinking of her daughter as her sexual rival. The way she shot up out of the chair and spat at him "GET OUT!". Oh yeah...he got her!
|
|