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Post by Techguy on May 24, 2011 13:02:07 GMT -5
Even from a non-shippers point of view, Bobby's friendship with Eames is probably the most intimate one he has. It's certainly been the closest and longest lasting. Getting back to Goren's discussion with Dr. Severin about how his father had taught him one thing, that everyone lies, how does he regard this advice with respect to his partnership with Eames? Does he regard her as the exception to the rule or does he also regard her with some suspicion? Before Goren can go any further in his exploration of failed intimate relationships, I think he has to confront any trust issues he has with Eames, who has been the one constant in his life and who always had his back even when he disappointed her.
BTW, I don't think her father Johnny has real Alzheimer's, it's the Irish kind as Eames said, and fueled by too much whiskey, where old grudges are never forgotten. It's another example of the paradox I spoke of earlier, the contrast between life lived and life remembered. Which is why I still think his "no grandchildren" comment to her was unnecessarily cruel and irrelevant, and perhaps exposes a darker side to their father/daughter relationship that I hope would be explored further.
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Post by annabelleleigh on May 24, 2011 13:17:57 GMT -5
.... Tight, well-written, engaging script and a fast-paced episode. Filming, directing and editing were great; each giving flavor and depth to every scene. D'Onofrio and Erbe were pitch perfect. You can see every aspect of their characters snapping on the screen, feel their partnership, friendship (their back and forth), the thrill of the puzzle, relaxed and in sync with each other. Truly a thing of beauty!... Lenore, excellent post (all of it). Let's give some of the credit where it's due: to Rick Eid, former lawyer and Wolf Pack veteran, who most recently wrote for TNT's "Dark Blue." (He's also responsible for "Rispetto.") While I thoroughly enjoyed the procedural, it's the Warren Leight-written therapy sessions that continue to fascinate. And here's an observation which may be unique to me: I think the therapy sessions -- like the one in this ep -- are meant to reveal Goren in ways we haven't seen before, and some of it may not be pretty. Those who imagine Goren as the archetypal pure-hearted but flawed hero may be surprised how much the character is driven by negative emotions. So when he tells Dr. Paula "Everybody lies" it's so cynical it's shocking -- but it's also believable. And why not believe it? (Sorry Angua). Goren was an abused child. Both his father and mother were narcissistic, and neither played the role of nurturing parent. Goren -- as he once said of a perp -- "raised himself." There's no way a kid survives that situation without developing a boiling, internal anger. Unlike his lying, selfish, addicted half-brother, Goren was able to focus his rage on fighting crime. However those "arias" we so much admire may be driven as much by a deep desire (formed in childhood) to punish as by a quest for justice. IMHO, this is what makes Goren more interesting than the myth white knight. He's always had a dual nature (particularly evident in Seasons 3 and 4). He can be sympathetic but also cold. Eames may indeed be his only intimate relationship, yet at numerous points in their partnership he's cut her off entirely. Cruelly, some might say. I continue to look forward to the therapy sessions but must wonder aloud -- at three minutes each over seven episodes -- how much can be resolved about Goren by Season 10's end. Again, it's fascinating stuff but will it leave us all feeling incomplete when this so-called "final season" 10 is over? AL
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Post by Patcat on May 24, 2011 13:18:27 GMT -5
Bobby has some trust issues with Alex as well. Remember that damnable transfer letter she wrote early in their partnership. I always thought Mr. D'Onofrio acted that scene very well. It's as if Goren always expected some disappointment from Eames. If Goren was trained to expect everyone to lie, that would explain a lot about his reaction to this.
Patcat
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Post by maherjunkie on May 24, 2011 13:38:30 GMT -5
I thought he was just referring to perps and POIs.
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on May 24, 2011 14:40:28 GMT -5
While I thoroughly enjoyed the procedural, it's the Warren Leight-written therapy sessions that continue to fascinate. And here's an observation which may be unique to me: I think the therapy sessions -- like the one in this ep -- are meant to reveal Goren in ways we haven't seen before, and some of it may not be pretty. Those who imagine Goren as the archetypal pure-hearted but flawed hero may be surprised how much the character is driven by negative emotions. So when he tells Dr. Paula "Everybody lies" it's so cynical it's shocking -- but it's also believable. And why not believe it? (Sorry Angua). Goren was an abused child. Both his father and mother were narcissistic, and neither played the role of nurturing parent. Goren -- as he once said of a perp -- "raised himself." There's no way a kid survives that situation without developing a boiling, internal anger. Unlike his lying, selfish, addicted half-brother, Goren was able to focus his rage on fighting crime. However those "arias" we so much admire may be driven as much by a deep desire (formed in childhood) to punish as by a quest for justice. IMHO, this is what makes Goren more interesting than the myth white knight. He's always had a dual nature (particularly evident in Seasons 3 and 4). He can be sympathetic but also cold. Eames may indeed be his only intimate relationship, yet at numerous points in their partnership he's cut her off entirely. Cruelly, some might say. I continue to look forward to the therapy sessions but must wonder aloud -- at three minutes each over seven episodes -- how much can be resolved about Goren by Season 10's end. Again, it's fascinating stuff but will it leave us all feeling incomplete when this so-called "final season" 10 is over? AL Oh, annabelleleigh you are not alone! I relish the dark side of Goren! It's what fascinates me about the character. To see Goren, verbally and physically, twist and pursue through the aria, watching for reaction to adjust and fine-tune his pursuit is a joy to behold! The darkness is there and when it's over you see in VDO/Goren's face and body language either the deep emotional cost to him or the almost glint of satisfaction when he succeeds. The dichotomy is there, but I'm never sure which way it is going to go. It's why I watch! And this episode's psych session gives the hints of the darkness for sure. The sessions confuse me somewhat because I'm not sure if they were written as "stand-alones" or as an appendage to a particular episode (ie using points of the episode to highlight or re-articulate an aspect of Goren). Does that make sense? If we are using the session with Dr. Paula in this particular episode where Goren blasts off about lying as a completing part of the episode then we have to consider the number of times the word "snitch" was used. Is snitching good or bad? Is it worse than lying? Is snitching really telling the truth and what are the implications of that? The bar owner kept saying he was no snitch, but Vanessa told David the truth and it cost him his life. What if Goren had snitched on his father to his mother? This is what keeps me mulling over the episode.
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kacesq
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 194
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Post by kacesq on May 24, 2011 14:51:17 GMT -5
This makes perfect sense to me. I originally thought they were stand-alones and just inserted into each episode. Plus, Dick Wolf said there was a conscious effort to move Goren forward via these therapy sessions and if you tied them into the specific episodes, and USA played its usual scheduling games, you'd lose that arc. But then this week, the session seem to tie directly into the episode with the lying man and the enabling daughter...
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on May 24, 2011 15:04:24 GMT -5
Exactly kacesq! I'm now going to 'fess up. I was able to view a rough cut of the first episode The Consoler that was sent out to the media before USA switched gears and put Rispetto first. The "two-doors" session was not a part of the rough cut. It raises some interesting issues about the sessions.
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Post by Patcat on May 24, 2011 15:49:37 GMT -5
I've never seen Bobby as a completely white knight. His struggle against his own dark side has always been part of his appeal.
The daughter--will she be able to live in the neighborhood now that she's become a "snitch"? Is that the reason for Driscoll's look at her as he's walked through the Squad Room?
Patcat
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Post by idget on May 24, 2011 16:51:31 GMT -5
Exactly kacesq! I'm now going to 'fess up. I was able to view a rough cut of the first episode The Consoler that was sent out to the media before USA switched gears and put Rispetto first. The "two-doors" session was not a part of the rough cut. It raises some interesting issues about the sessions. That makes me curious as to what else was changed and if you felt the rough cut was better than the episode we saw?
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on May 24, 2011 19:57:36 GMT -5
That makes me curious as to what else was changed and if you felt the rough cut was better than the episode we saw? Didn't want to hijack this thread...see response under "The Consoler"
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Post by darmok on May 25, 2011 0:22:46 GMT -5
Yes, in the session Goren says "Everyone lies all the time." But I don't believe he believes it. As some one else said, that's Dr. House's philosophy, but I don't believe it's ever been Goren's. And neither does the doctor. She even corrects him and says in his job he figures out who is lying and who is not. She says he said that to put distance between himself and her.
After thinking about ut, I think I agree that Johnny Eames doesn't have Alzheimer's. However, people often get crankier (or more willing to say what they think) as they get older, so their relationship may have changed a little in recent years - especially if mom's gone.
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Post by idget on May 28, 2011 9:51:32 GMT -5
Just got done watching Frame on USA and I had a thought. If Goren truly believes "everybody lies all the time" it might explain why he was so mad at Rodgers for her telling Ross about the DNA results. Declan asked Goren why it took him a year to take the test and Goren replies it wasn't because he was afraid of the results. What if it took him a year to decide to trust Rodgers to run the test and then when she breaks his confidence it proves once again to him that "everybody lies all the time" he was probably more mad at himself then Rodgers for trusting her.
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Post by Patcat on May 28, 2011 10:30:06 GMT -5
Considering what Goren has been through in the last few years, it wouldn't be surprising that he thinks everyone lies. His mentor lied to him, his mother lied to him, and about very big issues. The only person who hasn't lied to him lately is Eames.
Patcat
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Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
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Post by Leonore on May 28, 2011 10:35:43 GMT -5
I have no problem seeing that idget! I have no problem with Goren believing everybody lies and that he chooses to believe some. Lots of people do lie (I won't go as far as Goren and say everybody ;D). What Goren is good at (and it has served him well in his job and in many ways his life) is determining or deducing the intent.
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lola
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Posts: 43
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Post by lola on May 29, 2011 15:33:36 GMT -5
Well, done my duty as a memeber and voted for all 4 episodes. My mind is floating in LOCI fan heaven right now. Some absent-minded thoughts: - You might be right TG. I got the same impression from Alex ( her reactions , comments, face expressions ) that there is much more to it than just her usual snarky remarks. Alex's father looks like honest but tough man and must have raised her that way. And he suceeded but obviously not happy with result. Why ? Did he aproved her carrier choise but wanted her to be a good wife and mother too ?Or he's one of those who don't belive in gender equality? Is he prejudiced ? I have a feeling she is holding a grudge against him. - Everybody lies all the time? You to Bobby? To yourself and others? Have you lied so long that is started to sound like truth? Like '' dad took me to ball games.. no sorry.. he took me to this women's house..Maggie's... Where your world shattered into pieces and you weren't an innocent child anymore. Sensitive topic for me, I was deeply moved.
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