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Post by domenicaflor on Mar 26, 2004 23:11:42 GMT -5
Since there is an interesting discussion of Charles Manson and his relation to CI perps, including Connie in "Sound Bodies" here is a thread for this Season Three episode. (Unless the moderators disagree - I figured that an episode did not need to repeat to start a thread.) I love the LOCI double-entendre titles - so clever. D.
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Post by Metella on Mar 27, 2004 7:06:07 GMT -5
Yes & in keeping with my personality; I like the "bodies in the sound" meaning best.
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Post by trisha on Mar 27, 2004 9:27:21 GMT -5
It is stated in the FAQ that you can start an episode thread for any episode that doesn't already have one as long as the episode has already aired, so you are well within those limits.
Metella, you know I like the other side of the double entendre better, "Sound mind and body..."
It may be part of my heartless nature, but I really didn't feel bad for those boys who died in that boat. I was a teenage girl once, and knew a-holes just like them, but too bad for me and many other girls that those a-holes didn't have such a mishap because they were able to inflict the whole 4 years worth of damage to our emotional and sexual perceptions about men.
Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them.
(except the boys who post here ;D no offence, guys)
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Post by Sirenna on Mar 27, 2004 9:46:45 GMT -5
I understand what you're saying, Trisha. I went through it myself when I was younger but when I look at the episode I think about it from the girl's side. They were so passive about what happened to them, accepting the abusive, degrading treatment the sound bodies boys threw at them as if they had no choice in their part of it at all. When Goren asked the girl how she felt about the parties, she just shrugged and said somehting like: "hated it but what can you do." Goren's expression was so sad I think that entire episode was about how easy it is to manipulate people if the people involved don't have the personality tools to stand up for themselves. What I really liked about the episode was the end, which showed Goren refusing to give Connie any power over himself, showing Connie he saw through his manipulation of the girls during their interrogation. What I really really liked about the episode was the end of the ending when it's obvious that Connie will live to screw up another day for someone else unless that someone stops him.
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Lilee
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 190
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Post by Lilee on Mar 28, 2004 18:37:20 GMT -5
Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them. (except the boys who post here ;D no offence, guys) Or make them eat glue~! Ahhh, trisha, I have missed your sense of humor!
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Post by Metella on Mar 28, 2004 19:02:20 GMT -5
boys smell funny too
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Post by Patcat on Apr 26, 2004 9:52:57 GMT -5
::)Having just seen the repeat last night, some thoughts:
The greatest weakness of this episode is that I think it tries to do too much. There's not one, not two, but three plot twists taken from recent headlines (the arsenic poisonings, the boys drowning in the boat, and the teenage sex parties), and I think any one of these events could have supported an episode. As the episode is written, too much is going on. I would have preferred more focus on Connie, the girls, and his confrontations with Goren.
On the plus side, I actually like Bishop in this episode. She seemed to be starting to understand how to work with Goren (her distraction of the young woman with the puppy while Goren checks on the attic of the kennel for example). It's a different setting and situation, one where Goren has to deal with a more hostile group than usual--he and Bishop are definitely the outsiders here. And, while he's underwritten, Connie is a fascinating character who's well acted. I like his duels with Goren, who's probably the first adult who recognizes and calls Connie on his act.
And a nearly final thought--Connie is a name that I, at least, think of first as a girl's name. When Connie hits Goren, he slaps him, a move that's usually that of a girl. The girls love Connie because he doesn't act like the other boys they know. Significant?
And finally, a final thought (g). I've encountered LOCI fans and nonfans both who think of Goren as a loose canon always on the verge of a breakdown. I don't see that at all--I think he has a very good idea of what he's doing at nearly all times and has extreme control over his actions. (That's not to say he doesn't have deep emotions and conflicts--he does, and it's always fascinating to see him struggle when he does loose control, as in SUITE SORROW or APOI). The fact that he doesn't take Connie's block off after Connie smacks him is proof of that. Indeed, Goren moves very quickly and efficiently to regain both physical and emotional control of the situation, if he lost any control at all.
Patcat (with her two cents and then some)
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Post by trisha on Apr 26, 2004 15:24:22 GMT -5
I didn't feel that there was too much going on. The plot twists seemed more like the natural turns and flow of a real investigation, and having all the clue to clue work is really the original "Law and Order" style. I'm a mothership fan, too, so I wouldn't complain about that.
I agree 100% about Bishop in this episode. She has begun to really understand Goren by this case, and is also starting to appreciate the way he thinks and works. The most excellent proof of this is when Goren pounds his desk while listening to the 911 tape. Eames offers some sardonic sympathy for Bishop in being partnered with Goren, and Bishop says it's okay because he is listening to something that was bound to be upsetting and will hopefully give them a new lead.
To your point about the girlie Connie, I don't think he is gay, if that's what you meant. But he also definitely is not quite the testosterone fueled, pituitary case we understand the "sound bodies" to be. He's just a geeky, gangly, teenage boy who has feelings of inadequacies stemming from his childhood abandonment, and feelings of entitlement stemming from his twisting and misinterpreting of philosophical and religious texts combined with his psychopathic personality. He *knows* his sexuality is not his strong suit, and being a teenage boy, he is constantly subjugated by that fact. The only way he can master his weakness is to change the way it and he is perceived. He used his familial association with an already strong religious leader to back up an illusion of purity, i.e., he doesn't have sex because he choses not to, not because he can't get a girl. But be assured that once he got those girls to Utah, he would convince them that it is their duty to have sex with him and with thei eagerness to please, they would have been happy to oblige.
This brings me to your last point, and mine. I agree with you that Goren is not out of control, and will do you one better with regard to Connie's slap. In striking Goren, Connie was trying to assert some control and dominant presence in a room where he was getting smaller and smaller, and even though he managed to hit Goren, he got no satisfaction from it because Goren's response was not one of shame, pain, or anger, but one of mocking as though it didn't hurt at all. Any other L&O cop would have been insensed by that slap, but not Goren. He used it to further strip Connie of his masculinity. Excellent move.
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rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Apr 26, 2004 16:06:51 GMT -5
One of my favorite things about the episode is the how the actor who played Connie did the last courtroom scene, especially as he was being taken out. So much meaning in those few seconds of expression... and so open to interpretation.
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Post by Metella on Apr 26, 2004 18:36:35 GMT -5
um .... I'm not thinking too clearly tonight & don't want to concentrate.
Could one of you clue me in to why they put the poison in the sugar? Was there a single target or just mahem? Was it really to get that dead boy's mother to stop the investigation? & wouldn't there have been a better way?
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Post by Criminal Mastermind on Apr 26, 2004 21:13:45 GMT -5
The poisonings were indeed to hide the fact that the diabetic mother was the real target. Connie was just not smart enough to see that the detectives would see the randomness of the church killings and narrow it down in terms of who would be drinking the artificial sweetener for sure. It really makes me wonder what the chances were that someone else would have noticed that the cracks in the boat had been filled with frosting and glue, and if Goren was that weird kid who ate the paste during arts and crafts.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 27, 2004 9:08:10 GMT -5
::)I didn't mean to imply Connie was gay--if he were, I think it would make the story far too simple. He's asexual, as you noted--he's chosen power over sex. But everything about him, including his name and how he strikes out at Goren, contributes to his asexuality.
I wonder how Connie will fare in prison, if his charisma, intelligence, and knowledge will carry any weight with really tough guys.
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Apr 27, 2004 10:13:37 GMT -5
I doubt Connie will go to prison, not with the girls claiming responsibility for the killings. He will go on to gather a new following, and gave Goren a mocking stare to be sure he knew it.
I see where you are going with Connie's sexuality, but I don't see him that way. I think he is hetero, as does his uncle, but Connie is not the kind of guy that girls find physically appealing, so instead of becoming a slave to his weakness, he changed the way his weakness is perceived. He does want to have sex with those girls, but in order to get them under his thumb, he had to offer a sexless relationship. In taking them to Utah, he could marry them both, and then the relationship would be sexual by it's very nature, so the girls would feel right about submitting to him in every way.
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Rose
Rookie
Posts: 35
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Post by Rose on Apr 30, 2004 9:46:35 GMT -5
This is one of my three favorite eps of the whole series. Trisha I think Connie has to go to prison because he didn't he do a plea bargain? The girls took responsibility for the killings and maybe they did carry them out but Connie was guilty at least of conspiracy to commit murder. Can a defendant go back on a plea bargain once he's sentenced? I think that smile at the end was triumphant, saying to Goren "ha ha, the girls didn't betray me after all, you couldn't turn them, nyah". Connie is a powerful man, someone who can manipulate people into committing murder. Just because he's going to prison doesn't mean the danger is past. He's an ever-present menace and I think, someone who could keep Goren looking over his shoulder. I agree with you guys that Connie isn't gay. I also don't think he's asexual or a geek. He's not part of the jock crowd, he's a quiet guy and an intellectual, but that's not necessarily geeky. (To me, geeky means having poor social skills, being awkward, etc. I was geeky in 7th grade but I got better <g>). I think if he were a geek he wouldn't have been able to win over those girls. He's also attractive and sexy in his way. I think if he were really asexual he wouldn't be able to fascinate the girls as he does. I think he's made himself a kind of "priest". Catholic priests (except the ones who disagree with Church policy who rebel and get married and except the dishonorable ones who pretend to honor their vows but really don't) choose not to have sex; that doesn't mean they never had any sex drive or sexual desires, but they decided to take another path in life. Some women find the unattainable sexuality of attractive looking priests to be fascinating. This young actor had one of the best dynamics with D'Onofrio I've seen. Their acting styles are different so that aided in depicting the clash and hatred between the two characters. (Goren really seemed to personally dislike this guy...he doesn't always react that way to the killers.) I love seeing D'Onofrio and Goren challenged, and I love seeing young actors get to learn from D'Onofrio. I agree that this was Bishop's best episode. Too bad she faded into the background after that. There's a little bit of a parallel, once again, between the perp and Goren. Both of them were abandoned by a parent and are exceptionally intelligent and well read. Again, the perp used his talents for evil and Goren, for good. And again we're able to see what a dangerous man Goren could have been if he'd allowed his childhood pain to drive him to be evil. Trish, I was interesting in your (facetious) comments about boys who treat girls that way, I think part of the power of this episode is that anyone who felt walked all over or powerless or like an outsider in junior high or high school can relate to how these kids felt. It also forces us to see that despite the horrible behavior of the boys in the boat they didn't deserve to die for what they did...a horsewhipping would have sufficed. The lack of respect for human life started with out of proportion revenge against people who wronged them and then extended to people who never did anything to them -- and even extended to themselves and/or their own dear friend.
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Post by trisha on Apr 30, 2004 11:38:02 GMT -5
Rose, I think Connie did accept a plea bargain, but since we saw the judge rule to create a date for a sentencing hearing, we know he hadn't been sentenced yet. So, he still had time to withdraw his plea, and a good reason to do it. I also think you are right about Goren needing to watch his back with Connie on the loose. He will rise up again with another legion of followers willing to kill or be killed for him, and said that when that happens, they will come at Goren with knives. He's the kind of psycho I'd take seriously on that, and honestly, someone who makes a far better, and more threatening nemesis than Nicole Wallace.
As for my take on the boys... I guess I look at them in a different light than you do. Yes, they are human beings, but we learned enough about the type of humans they were to see that they just soulless shells. It's scary how psychopaths have a way of finding each other and teaming up. You saw 3 boys get murdered. I saw 3 sociopaths lose the right to prey on other human beings for entertainment.
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