|
Post by rosemary on Nov 15, 2005 10:05:14 GMT -5
To me, survivor of rape by stranger, the hug somehow surprised me. But I didn‘t think it find it unrealistic. As Observer2 has already noted, Goren is a bit of a father figure here. And thinking back about my own rape experience, my thought, espescially at the most crucial (and painful) point of the abuse my thoughts were: Daddy, where are you?! And for all the following years his absence when his daughter was an danger made me very sad. Of course it wasn‘t his fault, he couldn‘t follow me around anywhere to protect me. We are not the kind of hug-and-kiss family, my father didn‘t give me a hug. The cops were far too professional to do such a thing. But there was a priest or minister, I‘m not sure, who hugged me. I didn‘t resist. I felt it would be my father, if he could express his sympathy -- physically.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Nov 15, 2005 15:02:20 GMT -5
Thanks to all who've bravely shared what must be truly horrible memories. I'm fortunate enough not to have such experiences.
I wonder if Eames' presence also has something to do with the dynamics between Goren and Maggie? Especially given that Goren has just told Maggie that Eames killed one of the men responsible for her kidnapping? From a purely dramatic standpoint, it's more satisfying to have Goren comfort Maggie (and there's splendid work from Mr. D'Onofrio and the young actress who plays Maggie), but would it have made more sense realistically to have Eames comfort the girl?
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by willow2tree on Nov 15, 2005 15:21:53 GMT -5
Thanks, Observer, those were all good points. I realize my perceptions are quite skewed, because I didn't have any kind of a 'safe' male figure in my childhood. Both my father and older brother terrorized me. Reading your post made me sad, but gave me a better understanding of the character. Don't worry, after multiple bad choices in men early in adulthood (I thought love had to hurt, because it sure did when I was a child), lots of therapy and lots of soul searching, I am actually in a good place in my life. So, thanks. Willow
|
|
|
Post by urufu on Dec 21, 2005 11:48:18 GMT -5
I wonder if Eames' presence also has something to do with the dynamics between Goren and Maggie? Especially given that Goren has just told Maggie that Eames killed one of the men responsible for her kidnapping? From a purely dramatic standpoint, it's more satisfying to have Goren comfort Maggie (and there's splendid work from Mr. D'Onofrio and the young actress who plays Maggie), but would it have made more sense realistically to have Eames comfort the girl? Patcat That's a good point, normally women comfort rape victims, if you watch SVU it is almost always Oliva who is in the hospital or riding in the ambulance with them just because they 'should' feel more comfortable with a woman. But in the particular case, what Maggie wanted was someone safe and protecting someone she wouldn't have to fear. When Goren told her that Eames had killed one of the men, although Maggie most likely would be relieved, she was still just a kid and death scares must children. So by saying that Eames had killed that guy he made her out to be an aggressor in Maggie's mind. And with Goren's size and just his general Demeanor and how he managed to understand her she felt safe with him, because he seemed to really want to help her.
|
|
|
Post by rosemary on Dec 21, 2005 11:58:56 GMT -5
Good point, urufu. Even being an adult it somehow scares me if I hear that this or that person has killed somebody, even if it was justified, as in Eames' case. By the way, Eames is not quite the hugger, I think. And Goren, on the other hand maybe felt that he was non-threatening to Maggie and that she wanted him to hug her.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 21, 2005 13:52:09 GMT -5
Yea, there are moments when D'Onofrio makes Goren a great, big, warm teddy bear, and perhaps it makes sense for Maggie to want that.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Observer2 on Dec 21, 2005 16:22:27 GMT -5
Well, I agree that he can turn Goren into a big teddy bear, when he chooses to. But I don’t think that has anything to do with why he was the one to comfort Maggie in this scene. He wasn’t being a teddy bear. Maggie – in her defensive identification with the power/strength of the man who raped her – would have had only contempt for someone who was acting like a big, warm teddy bear.
Goren was being bigger and stronger – stronger in more ways than one, but physically stronger did matter to Maggie – than the man who raped her. It was important that he was trying to help her... but her mother had also wanted to help and protect her, and that had not made any difference. She still got raped. Goren didn’t just want to protect her, he also had the strength/power to protect her.
Goren also has a quality that Eames lacks – or rather, used to lack, though she seems to be developing it more over time. It’s hard to explain without using psychological jargon, because standard English doesn’t really have a way to describe the concept. In therapy terms, Goren could offer Maggie a safe container for her feelings. He knew the horror of what had happened, he understood what she was feeling, and he could cope with all of it. He could cope with being open to her feelings and facing them with her, without being overwhelmed or having to turn away.
Eames often has trouble being with people who are in great emotional distress – she often has to look away or hold herself still on an emotional level. Goren’s unusual levels of emotional openness and psychological understanding, and his ability to establish empathetic rapport, were all essential if he was going to break through Maggie’s defenses without leaving her worse off than she was before. Very few people, real or fictional, have those qualities to the degree that Goren does. Eames is more emotionally open now than she was before her pregnancy; but even now, I don’t think she’d be able to be with someone like Maggie in the way that Maggie needed at that moment. The person who was strong enough to look directly at what had happened and help her face her overwhelming feelings – that was the person she was going to turn to for comfort.
Eames, or even Benson, would have been completely out of their depth, trying to get through Maggie’s defenses. And there was no way for Maggie to accept comfort until someone got through her defenses.
In fact, if someone had told me about this scene – a scene in which a man forcibly breaks through the emotional defenses of a girl who has been abducted and raped, and does it in a way that is actually helpful to the girl – I would have assumed the scene would be either totally stupid, or unbelievably offensive... or, more likely, both. This was literally a scene I had to see to believe. It’s one of those scenes that could only happen (or only happen well) because Balcer and D’Onofrio are *both* involved in this series. The most psychologically astute writing in the world (and, in my opinion, Balcer is right up there), even with the best directing in the world, couldn’t provide an actor with the depth of psychological understanding, or the delicate touch with subtle nuance, that were essential for that scene to be believable. It’s that exceptional combination of a writer and an actor who *both* have unusual levels of psychological understanding that helps to take Criminal Intent to a whole different level of television. (No disrespect implied to the new detective team... I’m enjoying their episodes. But they have a different style, one that doesn’t lend itself as well to the kinds of psychological subtlety and depth that we’ve seen with the original team.)
|
|
|
Post by rosemary on Dec 21, 2005 18:10:44 GMT -5
Well, generally I think, the term "teddy bear" fits for our hero. Depending on the circumstances he can be more of a teddy or more of a bear. A bear can kill, although he usually prefers not to fight. His appearance is big and strong, that's true. And he conveys a kind of strength other than Matic's. Matic's was pseudo-masculine. Only a man who doubts his one maleness can be a rapist, I'm pretty sure about that (I already once stated, that I, myself am a rape survivor. This will be the last time, I won't say it anymore). But Goren is different. Maggie knows that. I cannot get away with my idea, that all the time since her abuse her soul was crying for a father. A real strong, protective father, not the wimp who sired her, pardon, I'm still with the horses, I mean, her biological father. And she somehow sees him in our hero. By the way, Maggie, tshould have aged by now inside the LOCI-universe, she'll be 18 now, I think. That was the age I slowly began to deconstruct my general contempt for men. And funnily enough, all my three main lovers qualified as these strong, protective father figures...
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 21, 2005 23:50:12 GMT -5
Observer and Rosemary;
Thank you for your perceptive comments. I was rather feebly attempting to suggest what the two of you expressed and explained very clearly--that Goren provided a safe place for Maggie.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Dec 24, 2005 10:14:37 GMT -5
Well, generally I think, the term "teddy bear" fits for our hero. Depending on the circumstances he can be more of a teddy or more of a bear. A bear can kill, although he usually prefers not to fight. His appearance is big and strong, that's true. And he conveys a kind of strength other than Matic's. Matic's was pseudo-masculine. Only a man who doubts his one maleness can be a rapist, I'm pretty sure about that (I already once stated, that I, myself am a rape survivor. This will be the last time, I won't say it anymore). But Goren is different. Maggie knows that. I cannot get away with my idea, that all the time since her abuse her soul was crying for a father. A real strong, protective father, not the wimp who sired her, pardon, I'm still with the horses, I mean, her biological father. And she somehow sees him in our hero. By the way, Maggie, tshould have aged by now inside the LOCI-universe, she'll be 18 now, I think. That was the age I slowly began to deconstruct my general contempt for men. And funnily enough, all my three main lovers qualified as these strong, protective father figures... I love your post, Rosemary, and applaud the others who have the courage to speak their truth as well..that takes ovaries!
|
|
digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
|
Post by digresser on Dec 31, 2005 4:15:20 GMT -5
Would anyone with Latin skill care to translate the episode's title? And would you mind if I used the info for the ep's Wikipedia's page?
The best I can come up with is "Man, man, wolf", but that doesn't make much sense, now does it?
I wish more of the recent CI eps would be able to capture the intensity of this one.
|
|
|
Post by rosemary on Dec 31, 2005 5:41:44 GMT -5
Homo Homini Lupus means literally: Man is a wolf (in relation) to man. It is a quotation by famous philosopher Thomas Hobbes, I think.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Dec 31, 2005 18:29:20 GMT -5
I just knew my time as an altar boy would serve me well some day! (But like Det. Goren, I'm definitely lapsed)
Homo Homini Lupus = "Man is a wolf to man." ---popular Roman proverb by Plautus (184 B.C.) in his Asinaria. Thomas Hobbes later used it in his "De cive, Epistola dedicatoria"
|
|
|
Post by rosemary on Jan 1, 2006 7:51:15 GMT -5
O my Techguy, your knowledge of Latin is definetely better than mine. I never read Plautus, only Terentius, and I felt the pivotal point of all his comedies was a (pending) castration... But I read some poets from the Golden Period (Horatius, Ovidius and so on). Being a Catholic myself I always wondered how lapsed our favorite Detective really is. By the way, I was an altar server for two or so years. I was already adult than, and somehow wanted to compensate my childhood. As a child I was pissed off that I couldn't serve to Mass, there were no "altar girls" at that time.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Jan 2, 2006 7:36:41 GMT -5
I had to look up and check the spellings of the words to be sure I got it right. It's been a while since I had to keep Latin masculine, feminine, and neuter words straight--plus all those pesky verb conjugations!
|
|