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Post by rosemary on Jan 2, 2006 11:37:10 GMT -5
Well, I actually like Latin verb conjugations in comparision to those of the Italian language. I once wanted to throw my Italian teacher, an arrogant midget out of the window -- which proofs again, that man is a wolf to man... or woman ;-) But what pisses me off about Latin is that the pronunciation is different in any part of the world. Only an English-speaking person would write it: "Homo Homini Lupis" (sic). And in that Gibson movie about the Passion of the Christ all actors pronounce the Latin words in the Italian way. -- And in Poland people tend to exchange certain Cs for Ks (also for phonetic reasons) something which was already outdated during Plautus' time. -- As for Goren being a lapsed Catholic... I'm waiting for a rerun of "The Faithful". Want to know whether I looked right. It seemed as if he threw the perp a "New American Bible", but I'm a little unsure. Wonder if that's the version Goren would read himself.
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digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
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Post by digresser on Jan 3, 2006 9:45:55 GMT -5
Techguy, Rosemary, thank you guys so much for bringing your Latin skills to the rescue!
Any objections to me using your translations for Wikipedia?
Thanks again!
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Post by rosemary on Jan 3, 2006 10:49:44 GMT -5
@ digresser: Feel free. I‘m glad you are refurbishing Wikipedia‘s LOCI articles.
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Post by Techguy on Jan 3, 2006 14:34:11 GMT -5
And let's not overlook the fact that the CI episode title omits the all-important Latin verb for "is." To be completely correct, "Homo homini lupus est"--"Man is a wolf to man."
And also, to be completely accurate, the Plautus quote in its entirety is "Lupus est homo homini, non homo, quom qualis sit non novit." Loosely translated = " Man is a wolf to man, when he does not know who the other one is."
As in, the capacity to behave as a predator is in us and that won't change. But we do have a choice as to how we act toward our fellow human beings. If we take the time and make the effort to get to know those we perceive as different, a lot of the causes of violence (murders, wars) would be diminished.
Plautus was more specific in his description insofar as how and in what circumstances man is, or is capable of being, a predator to his fellow man. Hobbes seems to take it a step further and attribute wolf-like behavior to the entire human race.
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Post by rosemary on Jan 3, 2006 15:42:09 GMT -5
exactly, techguy, that's how Hobbes saw mankind. I know this, because contrary to Plautus, I actually read him. I had to, it was in school. And I didn't enjoy it very much. Same as Rousseau. Es for the "est". It won't be something new to you, that the latin language often omits the "est". During Plautus and Terentius' time "est" was still much in use. Centuries later, ecclesiastical Latin often omitted the "est" as well as the "sit". I once had a webpage with a banner which had "Pax vobis" written on it. You won't imagine how much hate mail I received complaining that it should be "Pax sit vobiscum". But as far as ecclesiastical latin is concerned, pax vobis (the bishops initial liturgical greeting) is perfectly correct. As for as the CI ep is concerned I guess the writers had Hobbes on mind. This kidnapping didn't include a classical Stockholm syndrome. A case of Stockholm syndrome would include that the kidnapper(s) and the victim(s) get to know each other. The victim tends to identify with the kidnapper, which can lead the kidnapper to "get to know" the victim and so he won't be able to do him/her any harm. That last thing definetely wasn't the case, although the girl maybe identified herself with the agressor (see above discussion).
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loserbaby12
Silver Shield Investigator
i'm the baby, gotta love me!
Posts: 116
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Post by loserbaby12 on Jul 15, 2006 22:20:05 GMT -5
wow, to all of you who shared your stories, i'm terribly sorry you had to go through that, but kudos to you for being brave and sharing it! i know i'm "the new kid", so i wont go into detail cause ya'll don't know me very well, but I was the victim of a stranger rape and this episode of CI made me bawl my eyes out, even more so because I was about the same age as the victim (maggie i think it was) Whenever my (distant) cousin (who's also my english teacher) found out, he didn't know what to say...so he asked if he could give me a hug. Now, I don't really keep in contact with my dad, so hugging him was like hugging "my dad", if you can at all understand that. I absolutely love this episode, though, it rates #2 on my list of favorite Criminal Intent episodes (right behind "bright boy"). Goren did an excellent job of, as you all have previously mentioned, being a "father figure" and "teddy bear". Much love, ya'll!
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Post by rosemary on Jul 16, 2006 13:20:47 GMT -5
loserbaby! I can understand that, yes. If you've read the whole thread you know that I am a survivor of rape by stranger. I find the ep very intense…and somehow impressive, too. And yes, Goren did the right thing. He may be somehow socially awkward ("Bright Boy"), but I think he would have noticed it if Maggie didn't want a hug.
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Post by spaniard on Jul 16, 2006 14:26:19 GMT -5
I´m really sorry for those who went through such painful experience, you are very brave for surviving and being able to talk about it.
This episode is one of the best I´ve seen of all the shows I´ve seen, not only CI. I have a settled stomach, I worked in a vet clinic and I´ve seen surgery, beating hearts, autopsies, more pus you can think of, even the nasty smell of a rotten aborted puppy in its mother's womb so I know about disgusting things and they hardly impress me anymore. I´ve watched all kind of shows like CSI, Crossing Jordan and Goren touching all kind of fluids and organs with his knife and I am almost never impressed but this episode hit me hard, the only one I really found repulsive, without any sign of blood or a ME weighing a liver, this one was clean but more repulsive than any other episode. The rape scene always makes me use the fast forward button, I´m simply unable to watch it and that is why it is so great, it is able to transmit the suffering with a scene that is out of your sight, we only see the mother but it makes me shiver. One piece of work that really makes you forget it is fiction. I don´t know it if had any award but it highly deserved it.
About the girl´s attitude with Goren in her room, you expect your parents to protect you, when you are a kid you think that no matter what happens because at the end daddy can make miracles. Then you grow up and you see they can´t solve all your problems but Maggie was still in that age when you think that when a situation gets bigger than you, dad fixes it. But this time dad was not only not there, the rapist made it clear that it was dad´s fault, that she should blame him and when she came home knowing she couldn´t count on him anymore, she needed a new father she could trust. And Goren was there. That´s why I think she let him hug her, I guess that no matter what a strange man does to you, in your worst moments maybe you don´t want any other man in the world touching you but you run into your father´s arms, he is not a man, he is 'dad'. That is why she let Goren sit on her bed and hold her, he wasn´t a man then, he was just 'dad nº2'
If your father is the one who rapes you, then there is a complete different story about letting other men touching you but in this case I didn´t find the hug out of place.
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Post by spaniard on Jul 16, 2006 14:36:28 GMT -5
I split the post so it doesn´t look so long.
I also find disturbing how you see the happy family with normal chilidsh fights about a yogurt and then you see it devastated, it is very touching. And about the marriage, I thought the same! when you see the couple together again in front of the cops, one look and you see that it is over. And when the father doesn´t want Goren and Eames talk to the girl and his wife stops him, you can see in her eyes "you´ve done enough, you damn asshole, we are out of here soon".
Somebody commented that the wife was also guilty because she saw all the extra expenses and didn´t say anything but I think that if your father in law is rich, your husband works for a big company and he is in the middle of an important deal, you don´t have reasons to suspect everything went bad and your husband went to a loan shark.
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Post by sarahlee on Jul 16, 2006 18:41:24 GMT -5
Let me just say that I am so enriched by this site; every time I sign on, I find something to entertain, touch me, or make me think.
About Goren hugging Maggie-- when you're being abused you learn to compartamentalize your feelings to survive. You put experiences away, you don't deal with them or feel them, until you can, or you're forced to.
This child has alot to process, maybe too much for that moment. The whole scene rang very true to me.
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Post by prodigaltwit on Jul 30, 2007 22:26:13 GMT -5
I wonder if there was a political theme running underneath the episode as well. In addition to ep SVU 101 "Payback", this one also mentions the atrocities of the Serbian Army committed on civilians. Anyway, good ep.
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