|
Post by Sirenna on Feb 21, 2006 0:04:06 GMT -5
I'm a great believer that we learn the most from being exposed to things we disagree with. That's why I want to read everything, insults, profanity, poetry, logic and rhetoric. It's all good because it does let us practice tolerance, openness, diplomacy, clear communication and humanity.
At least I thought I did.
But when I read Metella's post, I thought of a movie that is coming out soon about Karla Homolka. It will describe, in graphic detail, rapes and murders she and her boyfriend committed, including but not isolated to, that of her own sister and I think how unrelentingly awful and insulting such a movie is to the families of her victims and as much as I feverently believe in free speech, I just can't see any kind of redeeming element to making or showing such a movie. It's prurient and I feel I must draw my own personal line at that.
Therefore, I can see why such a cartoon would offend. What I still can't understand is the call to violence (not in your friends' post, Metella) but in the general tone of those against publishing this cartoon. There is an element that if boycotts don't work, violence is not only condoned but necessary as the next step: that I cannot agree with.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 21, 2006 2:12:47 GMT -5
LOCIfan, I didn't miss the point of your post, I just simply disagree. Maybe I didn't make myself clear or elaborate enough, so I will try again.
For the Muslims to say anyone is attempting to destroy their religion or way of life takes a lot of gall, considering what they have done to Israel, even long before the West got "involved". No one in the modern era has attempted to destroy their religion or way of life and I think it is just an excuse for the "Jihad". The Jihad itself is an excuse.
I think the root of this comes not from actual fear or defense of their life or religion- I think it comes from a hunger to take over and control. And edspecially to expell the Jews from Jerusalem. They are intolerant of, I want to say Romanic rule because most of our laws are based on Roman/Canon Law but I think I'm using the wrong term. Anyway, they are intolerant of Westernized Law and ways of life. The simple existence of other religions and ways of life do not threaten them.
Nor do the Jews threaten them. The Jews have the right to live in Israel without being harassed or bombed daily. The only way the fanatic Muslims would be happy over the Palestine/Israel war is for all Jews to be expelled from Jerusalem, and probably from all of Israel. Howver, that is not going to happen, and should not happen. They need to find a way to co-exist with each other and that won't happen as long as there are suicide bombings everyday.
That goes back to why I say their claims that their way of life and religion is threatened is crap. They simply want to expell and destroy the Jewish people. It's easy to claim someone is doing something to you when you yourself are doing it to someone else.
At this moment, I must sound pro-Israeli, but that's how I feel about that particular situation (Israeli-Palestine squabble). On the other hand, I fell not all Muslims should be depicted as or lumped into the terrorist catergory. Most people do noyt understand Islam, how it is tightly entangled with law. They have every right to their way of life, yes, they do. However, they have no more right to interfere with others' way of life anymore than than others do in theirs.
However, with Bush in office, his intolerance does give them cause for alarm. Thanks to him many Americans think all Muslims are terrorists!
The constant fluffing off of the Muslims, especially bu Western governments has to be frustating for them, of course. However, they created their own mess. I think if they finally ended the violence, they would be more respected on an international level and would fare better in peace negotiations. Peace will never come as long as there is violence on their part.
I need to refine and clarify this because I'm very tired at this hour (2 AM) but I'll just leave it and let others respond and do it later.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Feb 21, 2006 12:46:14 GMT -5
Thank you guys. The list I am on, thanked me for how I asked about this situation and explained my position on it. They are a group of university students & so that education/social strata level must also be taken into consideration when reading this & that could make it even more alarming.
I really think most americans do NOT see Muslims as terrorists. No one I have spoken with takes that position. However, they do see the overall culture as a possible threat, depending on how the leaders focus the masses.
I still feel slightly personally alarmed that this can spill over into insanity so quickly. Now there are christians and muslims killing each other in Nigeria. So we are going to have a death toll in the hundreds & property damage in areas that cannot afford damage - all over the running of insulting cartoons.
The author of the above - said he was startled that I felt any alarm over his post, he said he didn't mean any threat from it. ? Viva la revolution ? & all that jazz - so either he has reflected on his position & doesn't mean any outreach to violence, or he is trying to placate me.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 21, 2006 16:20:48 GMT -5
I really think most americans do NOT see Muslims as terrorists. On the AOL and IMDB boasrds, the majority seems to hate Muslims and claim they are terrorists. I know that is not a good way to comprise the sentiment of all Americans but I think it is still scary nevertheless. Especially since those boards are so big with so many people.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Feb 21, 2006 16:22:48 GMT -5
AOL users for the most part are lazy & uninformed & new to the tech world and the internet.
As you can tell, I have scorn for AOL users; 4 I talked to didn't know their local ISP provider could get them up & running on the internet. Nuts.
OK - pay twice as much for the same dial up service AND get a wallop of censorship in your emails & information AND get bad connections and double billings on your credit card AND have to go through a mountain of red tape to ever disengage. Sure, go ahead, dudes.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 21, 2006 16:29:43 GMT -5
I got away from AOL in one single phone call! They censored emails? How did I not notice this?
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Feb 21, 2006 18:21:11 GMT -5
Trisha, I'm with you most of the way, except we both know there are loaded words that are especially offensive to certain minority groups. Is the use of the N-word or other epithets acceptable in the name of freedom of speech, regardless of what "hurt feelings" might result? I think in order for there to be such a thing as free speech, then yes, it has to be acceptable. I'm not saying such a thing should be considered a respectable thing to do, but I don't think it's okay to take away from the rights of all in an attempt to censor the few that would indeed throw gasoline on a fire instead of water. Locifan, you're scaring me. Why ask for more than equal rights for these people? Especially when they do not think ANYONE is their equal unless they think and behave just like them, except women, who can never hope to achieve equality no matter how devoted to their beliefs and causes they are. These people represent the epitome of intolerance, and while I will fight for their rights (in this country) to think and say whatever they want, I absolutely will not accept them imposing their belief sets on me or anyone else in our country under the guise of tolerance. Ugh! Bluck! Pthhh! Besides, it's not just the cartoons they find offensive about our society; it's pretty much everything. What else are we going to change in order to suit them? I say, if they don't like what they read in the news or see on tv, they can do the same thing the rest of us do; cancel their subscriptions and change the channel.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on Feb 21, 2006 18:59:15 GMT -5
trisha, i was not asking for rights of any kind for "these" people. nor did i suggest that the cartoons should have been censored or that anyone should have beliefs thrust upon them. i was simply arguing that, in order to deal with this problem, a certain amount of recognition and understanding of the source of the rage is absolutely necessary. the violence sparked by the cartoons was not just about cartoons.
i find last week's violence horrific and do not agree with or condone any of it. what frightens me is that, in that instance, the violent fringe element seemed to be speaking/acting for more than just a fundamentalist fringe element of Muslims. if the gap in understanding between our cultures continues to grow, the violence will grow with it.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Feb 22, 2006 9:06:41 GMT -5
what I have seen though, is that sure only a fringe edge is advocating violence BUT once that fringe starts - the others join in with glee; they are not forced to join - they RUSH to join. This is a grave problem, and I have no good solution - but my eyes are open and I am glad to hear what you have to say AND the group of students who have me in their cyberchatgroup.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on Feb 22, 2006 11:33:41 GMT -5
metella, i agree that it's a grave problem. and, like you, i see no good solution. but i think discussions such as these can only help us all to mull the issue and at least attempt to understand it. thanks for starting this thread.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Feb 22, 2006 12:36:37 GMT -5
Locifan, I think this is where you and I are actually disagreeing: Would it help relations if Americans had a better understanding of Islam and vise versa? I'm not so sure ....
The people who use rioting and terrorizing to manipulate and control others don’t represent the majority of Muslims. IMO, that’s like using Christian Scientists as an example of all Christianity. Could the Christian Scientists get other Christians whipped up about Christian rights? Yes, I think they could. Given the right timing and circumstance I bet they could start a riot, and not because they’re oppressed or misunderstood, just because people are selfish, panicky, stupid, and susceptible to group think. Just look at “The War on Christmas” that was started by that freaking crazy idiot, O’Reilly. That is what I saw happening, a bunch of self-centered idiots running in circles, breaking stuff. If you’re saying that there is some deep underlying rage over the treatment of Muslims over the ages at the heart of the whole fiasco, then I cannot entirely disagree, but the same can be said for those “War on Christmas” idiots. Honestly, I don’t think the cartoon debacle is one that could have been prevented by educating people about Islam. This is a case where people were actively looking for something, anything, to make a call to war for, and the best they could come up with is a cartoon.
But, just like O’Reilly rallying the Christian’s together over people deciding to say, “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” this cartoon crap is not about what it’s about. It’s about having one more thing to ram down the throats of the rest of the world: look at us, we’re important, we’re scary and we’ll destroy you if you don’t bend to our will!
My main point is that, it's all well and good to suggest that the rest of the world to take a closer look at what makes Muslims tick (pun intended), but I think it's just as important to note that the Muslims emigrating into Western Europe, where the cartoon originated, are not integrating into the societies of the existing communities that they’re moving into the way they have done in the US. The Muslims in my area (there are A LOT of them) are, for the most part, well integrated citizens of Michigan and The United States. But, in Europe, they're, for the most part, creating cloistered little villages where they attempt to promote and enforce their own laws and societal norms. The original inhabitants of those communities, who are also competing with the newcomers for jobs and affordable housing, are not welcome into these new blocks of society, and they don't like it. Would you? And at the same time the European Muslim emigrants are claiming that they are the victims of bigotry and segregation, they are actively shutting out the rest of the world, except when they‘re trying to change it to suit their needs. Boys are encouraged by their parents and religious leaders to police the girls and younger boys in the public schools to be sure that their ways are being upheld, regardless of the rules of the schools, cities and countries they’re in. As a parent, I must say that such a thing would both frustrate and scare me if it were going on in my kids schools.
In a nutshell: fear and intolerance is going both ways. And, I don’t understand the point of view that it’s our responsibility to help end it by educating ourselves in their ways and sympathizing with their causes. If they are strenuously opposed to accepting the laws and norms of a society, they shouldn’t move into that society. To suggest that it’s our responsibility to bend to their religious code in order to prevent conflict is just ridiculous to me. I know you say that’s not what you’re saying, but that’s all I’m hearing in your posts; that we have a responsibility to know better than to print things that will offend them or this kind of thing will just keep happening. What I’m saying is simply that we don’t have any such responsibility, and if they are going to rage about a cartoon, they’ll rage on about anything, just like Bill O’Reilly. The only responsibility we have is to promote equality and tolerance in our laws. People should be free to be as arrogant, bigoted, and artistically offensive as they want, which is the status quo, and is something, I'm happy to say, that the "these people" I was refering to actively make use of -- in some cases, for the first time safely and legally.
Funny how that works for them, isn't it? They use freedom of speech to demand the end of freedom of speech.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on Feb 23, 2006 0:32:16 GMT -5
trisha, if the Christian Scientists had the power of the U.S. military backing them, you bet they'd make a difference. And, yes, the U.S. military is bombing and killing people based on ideology and economics. And the people they're killing are Muslims. So, yes, I agree with you that intolerance is a two way street.
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Feb 23, 2006 2:34:18 GMT -5
I was just using Christian Scientists as an example of the power of religious affiliation. They can insight riotous reactions in other Christians based, not on military backing or might, but solely on the idea of if one attacks one sect of a religion, no matter how small the sect, they can be accused of attacking the religion as a whole. This is what I saw happening with O'Reilly and his stupid war, and it's what I see happening with Muslims and the cartoon. But, in both of those cases, only a small percentage of the main stream fell for it.
As to bombing and killing Muslims based on ideology and economics ... I think economics is certainly true, but the ideology part is just a cover for greed.
I am sorry that our government officials have abused the power that we citizens have given them. I'm sorry for it everyday, and for many reasons, most of which are more pressing to me than what is happening in the Middle East. That may sound callous toward Middle Eastern people, but I think that before we can hope to clean up the mess we've helped to make there, we need to set our own house(s) in order. And, the last thing we need in this endeavor is to give up the rights to question, respond, or make comments that someone might find offensive.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on Feb 23, 2006 4:15:59 GMT -5
oh trisha, i so agree with you. and i absolutely understand that you were using the christian scientists as a rhetorical device. all i am suggesting is that, to Muslims, the line between what our military does for economic reasons and for ideological reasons may not be so clear. (and i also agree that the ideological reasons are a mask for greed.)
and, like you, i don't believe ANY of our rights to question or criticize or demand accountability from our government should be sacrificed.
as i mentioned earlier, i am a jew. it would be very easy for me to say "my children are human beings, citizens of the world." but the fact is that my children (i have two) are jews, and we live in a world where there are people who want to kill them for no reason other than that they are jews.
my response to the violence of 9/11 and, more recently, regarding the danish cartoons, is simply my attempt to try and understand the other side of the equation. because if i can't recognize and understand the source of that rage (and, perhaps more importantly, the humanity underlying it), i just can't see a way for our cultures to coexist peacefully. i don't have answers. i am only searching, as we all are. and, i don't mean to suggest that my way of searching is something i think our government should follow. it's just the path that i'm trying to take -- as an individual, and as a mother.
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Feb 23, 2006 6:29:26 GMT -5
Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Atheists, are all going to end up killing each other trying to take each others "rights" away before the Antichrist comes to power and takes everyone’s rights away
|
|