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Post by Cassie on Aug 29, 2006 20:55:25 GMT -5
Hope you don't mine me bringing a quote over from another thread, but I felt it belonged on this thread , at least for the moment After reading Catbird's post on the TC thread: "Those who seek consolation in existing churches often pay for their peace of mind with a tacit agreement to ignore a great deal of what is known about the way the world works." --Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.Most people, who attend church do not belong to the World they belong to God. There is a difference, on how they view the world, and how the world views them. Like I have said to my kids ,“Only you can claim who God is for yourself. No one else can do it for you. It’s a personal journey/relationship that we can go on, if we choose to”. But then, I'm also skeptical of "feel-good conversions", where you cry a little and say a prayer and think so much more highly of yourself without doing anything to try and take care of stuff. My aunt "gave her life to Christ" at least three times in the two months she stayed with us and it didn't do her a damn bit of good. She thought that it made her all good and holy and everyone would fall all over themselves to make her life wonderful, but didn't do anything to keep from screwing up in the same old ways. I also had a friend who gave her life to Christ. I told another friend, that it was great, except I think she (the one who gave her life to Christ) thought that she would be healed from the Cancer. She said, “Maybe God used the cancer to get her attention, to bring her to him. We still have to work on being who God wants us to be, through trial and error” So, don’t give up on your aunt. “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak“. And we are allow to fall, and Jesus/God will pick us up again. Remember the poem “Footprints“……“its was then that I carried you”” God, will ALWAYS give us a fresh start. But when you and I look at the person in their circumstances. Like aunts or sister….(my family here) ….we have less understanding, tolerance of where they are at. It took me many years to quit smoking. People from the church that I attended , could not understand my battle. They said I was weak and not a true believer. When it came to communion there were even a few who also felt I wasn’t worthy of It. I remember reading years ago, about the struggles of Martin Luther, the founder of the Luther denomination, He wanted not to sin at all for God. He locked himself in his room for well over a year. Being perfect…and just praying. Then the one day he game to the realization. By hiding and praying, nothing was getting done. And in doing that he was sinning… So he left his room, and worked to the best of his ability and made some mistakes and asked for forgiveness from God and his fellow man. Communion…We do it on the 1st Sunday of the month. Every now and then, my pastors tweeks the presentation. Once he had everyone, take their little cup of wine , and bread, and stand against the wall, where the whole congregation is in a complete circle looking at each other. And we all took it at the same time. That was really a very special experience for me. To me, Life is about Forgiveness…..To Forgive and the ability to ask for forgiveness. I am working on both of those……but there is also the 3rd part of forgiveness which is the ability to “forgive them for they know NOT what they do“ I have a “look“ according to my husband, that I give him, and others….that I have tried to pawn off as my “ “I forgive them for they know NOT what they do!!“ hubby and friends arent buying it ….they say I have to work on that one too.. . But what about the religion of Consumerism,or dont we see it as that yet?! Geeze, I remember years ago, the show "WiseGuy" about some undercover cop who preteneded to be a wiseguy. Actor, Ron Silver was a guest star went to the wiseguy's home and is looking around, at his sparce home and said. "less is more, I like it." that has always stuck in mind. Some people spend to fill up an emptiness that is inside, and become pack rats.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 29, 2006 22:06:11 GMT -5
Cassie,
Thank you for your concern. The thing with my aunt is complicated because it's not me she's really affected, but I've seen how she has hurt Mama in the past. Last I heard there has been progress, but I'm more worried for my mother than anything else. It's not that I'm an unbeliever in all awakenings or rebirths, I just worry when they border on ego-trips and "I'm so special!" rather than sincere...I dunno if "reform" is the right word, but I trust you know what I mean.
It's not that I believe or disbelieve anything specifically, I mentioned earlier I'm going through my phase of trying to figure it out for myself. Like I said, I have impressions, feelings, and gut instincts. For now, at least, I think there's something but I'm not sure what, and everybody can find their own way.
I need to read up on him more, but my understanding is that John Wesley (founder of Methodism) was actually fairly balanced between individual spiritual experiences--apparently he was really intrigued by Teresa of Avila--intense, rational and logical study of the Bible, and getting out doing stuff. Early Methodists were known for their work and outreach to prisons, prostitutes, the poor, and the other undesirables who they felt had been left behind by the apathetic Church of England. (In fact, some political theorists have wondered if Methodism and other religious reform movements concentrating on the poor and disenfranchised were what saved England from undergoing its own revolution in the eighteenth/nineteenth centuries, but I digress.) Anyways, that seems to me a nice balance between intellect, practicality, and emotional/spirituality.
You couldn't quite smoking because you were a sinner? Oh good grief, that's exactly what scares me about religion. The best and worst advertisements for Christianity are Christians.
OK, enough of Catbird's personal dumpfest.
Janethyland (and Cassie), I have a hard time thinking of consumerism as religion, maybe because it's not organized, or it's hard to think of it as a conscious choice. Does anybody really articulate "A fancy car will make me special?" Rather like Silas Marner; I still think that it wasn't the money itself that was important, just a crutch habit to latch onto. It could very easily have been alcoholism, or sex or gambling (OK, not for Marner, but still...), and I haven't heard too many people refer to those as religions.
Or does this just make me, to quote House, "An anti-semantic bastard"?
--Catbird
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Post by spaniard on Aug 29, 2006 23:34:34 GMT -5
Comsumerism is not a religion, it's an addiction...and I'm not an addict, I can quit when I want People love themselves too much, some of them even believe they are gods so no need to pray to someone else, they honor themselves all the time like Narcissus. And that is very selfish and sad. And some people (including celebrities) only remember that they have a religion when it is useful for them. My question about the post is...if you are rich, successful and famous why do you screw your own life getting into other people's business? If I get rich I won't bother to discuss with other people, including those who think that the Earth is flat. No matter if they believe in something I don't agree with, I will be too busy spending my money...because I told you I can quit when I want, it is just that I don't want to.
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Post by Techguy on Aug 30, 2006 16:40:13 GMT -5
I told Mrs. T long ago, I'll climb the highest mountain and swim the deepest sea for her--just don't ask me to go along to a shopping mall!
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Post by sarahlee on Aug 30, 2006 17:16:14 GMT -5
*WARNING* I'm gonna start a firestorm here---I'll take consumerism over communism any day. (And yes, I do know there's a difference between capitalism and comsumerism.) This train of thought is starting to sound a little red book to me. I hate malls too, techguy, my weakness is the 99cent store!
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Post by spaniard on Aug 30, 2006 18:24:09 GMT -5
I know the magnificent power of the god of the 0'99. If I see 5 and 4'99, I buy the 4'99 piece and I even think I'm saving money, when the truth is that I would only save money if I didn't buy at all.
I avoid sales because I don't like these unsatisfied people that try to fill their lives with short moments of pleasure, like an addiction. I keep my money very well but I admit that I get very happy when my amazon order arrives and sometimes I buy movies I don't have time to watch, it´s like if I had lost interest the moment I know I can watch them when I want. I guess I'm a sinner too.
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Post by janetcatbird on Aug 30, 2006 20:40:02 GMT -5
I'm one of those suburban teenagers who, gasp and horror, did not enjoy the shopping mall, much less hang out there! To me, most shopping is go in, get what you need, get out. I look for sales and bargains, but the big major events, such as Black Friday (day after Thanksgiving)--good lord deliver us.
My personal weakness is Borders and Barnes & Noble. Books, music, and to a lesser extent movies: I console myself with thinking that "It's not filling a void in my life, it's personal interests! It's not that I have to have a big name, it looks/sounds cool!" (OK, I'm a snob, I admit.) I've only made one big gigantic purchase --"The Avengers" Emma Peel megaset of DVDs-- but I thought long and hard about it. Plus, I tend to repeat books, movies, and CDs quite alot so I get my money's worth out of it.
And I do enjoy when I manage to find something just right for someone's gift--I put a lot of effort into picking out Christmas presents for the family when I went to Italy. Not "I got this at a fancy Italian shop!" but "I know you're interested in so-and-so" and being able to tell the stories.
I think, Janethyland, that calling consumerism a religion is a bit forced. Lifestyle for sure, possibly a philosophy, but not organized belief or anything.
Sarahlee, My understanding of Marx at least is limited to his views on religion. While I think socialism/communism (the ideal forms at least) are interesting in theory, human nature just ain't gonna work. I had to read a play called "Serious Money" in a class last year--greedy nasty evil stockbrokers in London of the Thatcher 1980s--and it made me want to take up Alpaca ranching in the Peruvian Andes. When Mama taught social studies, during the unit on the USSR she would bring in a children's book called How Does a Czar Eat Potatos?, which is a very cute, clever little book contrasting the czar with "your father" (the peasant)--great illustrations, by the way. (Yes, between that and The Butter Battle Book my mother had the Soviet Union covered.)
But at least capitalism/free market, with all its downfalls, gives you options. (Well, that's debatable for the lower classes, but I won't go there!)
I do remember getting incredibly angry with Thoreau when I had to read Walden. He just struck me as terribly self-righteous and smug, all condescending that he was above such petty things as labor and work, and really why don't some of those foolish working poor go live with nature like he did? I found myself shaking the paperback text and yelling "They have families to support you jerk! Not everybody has a rich friend with a spare guest-house on a lake that he'll let you stay in for free, moron!" Thoreau, though he didn't like to admit it, at least had the money to cover the basics. It has been pointed out that contemplation and philosophy are luxuries of the middle class.
Wow, I'm verbose. I've done all my reading for tomorrow, so now that my tea has cooled to drinkable I'm curling up with a fun book. Huzzah!
--Catbird
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Post by spaniard on Aug 30, 2006 21:44:16 GMT -5
I hated Walden too. It's like high class american and brit youngsters that wanted to be artists hating their families for being so decadent, so vulgar with their old-fashioned customs but at the same time they could be tragic poets because of their families money! You can be so free and your ideas are so liberal when you don't work, you wake up at 12 and dad pays the rent. Society judges you by what you have and if you are not happy you think that having more will make you happier and it is only a temporary feeling followed by more emptiness. But at the same time you are not doing anything wrong if you want to please yourself from time to time (don't think dirty ). At this point we can talk about if money gives happiness but I think we shouldn't because it´s an endless subject. I will say that I paid $50 for a LOCI dvd set and I can tell you that I've watched them so many times that they worth it so I'm feeling satisfied but not guilty. All is about balance. I don't want to live in a idesert sland eating coconuts, I like things because I like them, not because someone tells me I have to like them or because I think I have to like them to find peace of soul, so consumerism is no religion for me.
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Post by madger on Aug 31, 2006 9:45:06 GMT -5
Wow, I love you guys. We went from Tom Cruise to religion to politics to economics to philosophy, were else can you get that? Personally I'm an avowed agnostic in all four of the above themes, I try to see both sides, or all 100 of them and end up only being sure of not being sure. I'm a pessimist when it comes to humanity, put more than two of us together for long enough and we mess it up somehow, and we come from social animals, imagine if we came from loners.
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 1, 2006 10:56:58 GMT -5
Somehow I think his ego is large enough to withstand the apathy of one little internet board!
--Catbird
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Post by Cassie on Sept 2, 2006 17:23:50 GMT -5
Shields Says Cruise Has ApologizedSat Sep 02,11:34 AM ET entertainment.tv.yahoo.com/entnews/ap/20060902/115722204000.htmlBrooke Shields says Tom Cruise has apologized for publicly criticizing her use of antidepressants after the birth of her first daughter. The two had a public beef last year after the "Mission: Impossible III" star, echoing the position of Scientology, said in an appearance on NBC's "Today" show that depression can be treated with exercise and vitamins rather than drugs. The 41-year-old actress says Cruise apologized in person Thursday. "He came over to my house, and he gave me a heartfelt apology," Shields said Friday during an appearance on "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno." "And he apologized for bringing me into the whole thing and for everything that happened. "And through it all, I was so impressed with how heartfelt it was. And I didn't feel at any time that I had to defend myself, nor did I feel that he was trying to convince me of anything other than the fact that he was deeply sorry. And I accepted it." Cruise's spokesman confirmed the celebrities made up. "It is true that his friendship with Ms. Shields has been mended," spokesman Arnold Robinson said in a statement. "He has not changed his position about antidepressants, which as evidenced by the black label warnings issued by the FDA on these types of drugs, are unhealthy." Shields, who wrote "Down Came the Rain: My Journey Through Postpartum Depression," has dismissed the actor's remarks as a "ridiculous rant" and "a disservice to mothers everywhere."
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Duet
Silver Shield Investigator
Bing.... Reality.
Posts: 129
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Post by Duet on Sept 2, 2006 18:00:37 GMT -5
I'll bet a buck that Katie is not feeling too happy these days and for all that mans enthusiasm and money he's discovered that you just can't find or buy happiness in a vitamin. Let alone a gym.
Sometimes sadness is just sadness. Tears can't always be stopped cause you tell them to.
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Post by caseyswife on Sept 3, 2006 11:55:07 GMT -5
Duet>> I couldn't agree more. I have suffered from clinical depression since I was a teenager. I don't know how many times I have heard people - even family - say "Oh, just stop it - get over it - etc..." It is hard for others to understand how hard that is to do when your brain is having a grand old time messing with you 24/7. I thank God everyday for the many advances made in medications and therapies - if it wasn't for them, I probably wouldn't be here today.
I think it was a good thing he apologized for dragging her into his mess and from her statements, it sounds as if his words were genuine. Maybe he will think twice from now on before opening his yap.
caseyswife
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Duet
Silver Shield Investigator
Bing.... Reality.
Posts: 129
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Post by Duet on Sept 3, 2006 15:58:00 GMT -5
On more than one occasion I've felt that happiness is nothing more than an illusion.
A cruel joke men/women like Cruise flaunt.
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Post by madger on Sept 3, 2006 20:01:45 GMT -5
I too suffer from chronic depression, runs in the family, my grandma went to bed one day and decided to spend the rest of her life there, which she did. My sister killed herself when she was 21, and the only reason I'm still around is having survived my sister, I didn't want to put my family through that again, but its been a struggle.... The irony of depression is that when you need to get help you don't, after all, what's the point? Thanks to Prozac, Wellbutrin and my dogs and cats I can get out of bed in the morning and manage to get through the day without fantasizing of killing myself, there is no reason for me to feel this way, I have a great husband, a wonderful family, I love my job, loyal friends, this board, it's a completely physical phenomenon for me. The Tom Cruises of the world should try walking in others shoes once in a while, not just play at it for mega bucks.
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