|
Post by Eastsider on Dec 10, 2006 6:49:33 GMT -5
OK, don't virtually shoot me - I know there is a lot of sympathy for Goren out there and I feel for the guy too - but, as the daughter of a mentally ill mother, I was a little surprised at the level of enmeshment between Goren and his mom. I knew he was her primary caretaker, but thought he would have developed some pretty firm boundaries by now in order to survive. ... I think Bobby might be on the verge of that crisis Alex was warned about some time ago. Nelda, the prescribing nurse/DJ killer from seasons ago, was right on the money about that, and we might be witnessing it to some degree. I wish Bobby would confide in Alex a little more. He needs someone to lean on a little, and she could probably use a sympathetic ear from time to time (" I'm not going to get better by myself"). I can't imagine, even with her close family ties, that she wants to talk to them about being held hostage by a serial killer. In their line of work, both of these people need all the support they can get. At least Alex has her family- Bobby has no one. It's breaking my heart to watch him. Oh by the way, Hello, Everybody! Note my Rookie designation and feel free to set me straight when necessary
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Dec 10, 2006 11:25:32 GMT -5
Interesting perspective Eastsider. I too think he is on the verge of crisis, how it will end is anybody's guess at the moment. Welcome to the board! Post away and don't hesitate to stand your ground if you feel strongly convinced. This is one of the more open boards about the show. (I might disagree but I'll always stick up for your right to say it! )
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 10, 2006 11:56:36 GMT -5
Knowing someone at work, and being friends with them through that filter is one thing...your relationship changes once you've been exposed to their outside life. Oftentimes my insights into who someone is are changed quite a bit when I see their home for the first time. It can show you things that you would have never guessed about that person's personality. That's how I feel about this episode. And because it's the magical land of TV, we were allowed to get glimpses that otherwise wouldn't be possible. Well said, everyone we meet is a diamond in the rough, until we start to see all of their facets. I feel this episode opened my eyes to Eames a little bit more, other then being a hard core cop. I saw a real woman who still struggle with her deceased husband's image of her. And expecting Goren to walk the line of Super Sleuth, can't be human. Just isn’t fair. As for the murder of Amanda, a war hero being trivialized? No, I didn't see that at all. Years ago, John Travolta starred in "The General's Daughter" 1999, which was based on a true story. The murder an officer, who happened to be a general's daughter. (I don't know the real story) However, at the end of movie, I was left with the feeling that the General was OK with sacrificing his daughter for the military. At the end of this show, I did not feel that way. I felt that Amanda's father wanted to believe that he would have been there for her, and helped her to do the right thing. JanetHyland, thanks for composition. You give each episode a poetic finish.
|
|
|
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 10, 2006 12:18:07 GMT -5
WAR AT HOME Goren is without his notebook for most of the episode, tossing it aside carelessly and even leaving it behind, when usually he clings to it fanatically. Usually he is single-minded and concentrated on his work, but here he seems to be indecisive, preoccupied with conflicting emotions towards Family and Work, constantly being called away from one by the other. This Goren is insecure, subservient to his formidable mother. When he says, “I’m with Family” he is in fact with one person, the most unmotherly of Mothers, all head and no body, manipulative and impenetrable. We see a man who had to become his own mother from a young age, whose love is not reciprocated. I mean no disrespect to Janetland, but I have different point of view. Goren feels love for his mother he is not conflicted with hate as he was for his father. Just because someone is mentally ill, doesn't mean they are incapable of love. His mother may be Schizophrenic, but that doesn't make her a cold blooded monster. I agree though that people who are mentally ill do tend to be manipulative at times. His mother is scared, in the hospital away from what she has considered home for many years, and facing a life threatening illness. Also, she may have been off her meds so that the doctors could do their tests. Even if on her meds, sometimes doctors and nurses aren't trained to deal with a patient who has mental health needs, and they see the patient as troublesome. Having a family member there to intervene and make sure that all goes well is better for everyone involved. Goren is empathatic and caring though distant and weary because of his mother, but I think it's because she was a good woman, this is why he chose to become someone who saves versus someone who kills. His mother is basically his only family. Since we don't know if Ross knew about his mother illnesses (both of them), and Goren doesn't trust Ross yet, by saying family instead can mean several things. One, that to Goren his mother means "home" . Two, that he didn't want to explain to Ross what was really going on with his mother. Again, it's just speculation as is your point of view, but I've always thought of Goren's mother as a very bright caring women who life was shattered by mental illness and by a husband who couldn't cope with her illness. Daddy Goren on top of already being inclined toward some bad vices then abandones his family with these behaviors as a man who is self-absorbed and places his happiness above his family. I agree that Goren did have to parent himself to a large degree, but in his formative years and I think throughout his life, Goren was able to experience and receive love and other positive emotions and feelings from his mother. This is why he could never let her go because she was worth saving and is frustrated that he is unable to, so he tries to save and help others. Tossing away the notebook signifies to me anyway, that Goren has always used his job as a shield and a means of distancing himself from having significant relationships, maybe even with other members of family. In leaving the notebook behind he has made up his conflicted mind that his mother is what is most important to him at this time. I think this is why the producers open up with mommy Goren telling him to go, because she's used to Goren being consumed with work. Mommy Goren understands how her son filters in his emotions about her and the family into the job. Goren is used to coping in this manor and this why he's feeling insecure and indecisive. Gorens whole way of functioning has to change, and I think he's also dealing with the possible consequences to himself and his way of life, if mother Goren dies.
|
|
|
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 10, 2006 19:13:53 GMT -5
One major difference,seen in this episode as in others,is the sense of open endings instead of closed endings. That can be disturbing,and i think deliberately so.It means the catharsis is different.Perhaps this world order we are being shown is closer to the one we inhabit than the ideal,slightly messy with loose ends. Its a darker vision. I agree, though the character's actions and reactions were always subject to our own experiences and opinions it didn't have the same intent/value as it does now since it's about the characters that we have come to be invested. Even though it's on an entertainment level, good actors want to register emotion and make their audience think about themselves and their role in society. Though I wasn't happy with this episode, I do have to admit that it did stir us all into thinking about the characters and real life issues so I guess in this way it was a success. However, having just made this statement, I admit to still missing the Goren of the first 2.5 years.
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Dec 10, 2006 21:40:45 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Goren loves his mother and is distressed by "losing" her to her mental illness. He has admitted that as a younger man, he blamed her for her illness and for his father's leaving but no longer feels that way. Whenever he has been in position to deal with mentally ill perps or witnesses, he has dealt with them gently and empathically because of what he has learned as his mother's caregiver. His father, on the other hand, is quite a different story. Goren has had, and continues to have, unresolved issues about his father's abandonment. These issues will continue to lie beneath the surface of his psyche unless and until he can come to terms with them and perhaps arrive at a point where he can forgive his father.
I re-watched TWAH and, no offense to those who disagree, but I still believe very strongly that the issue of returning vets and most especially the story about Amanda Dockerty's murder was most definitely trivilialized. The salacious titillating details about her life created an image that service men and women are sexually promiscuous and that the practice is rampant. I don't doubt such behavior occurs, but these details were provided for the sole purpose of either trashing Amanda Dockerty's reputation or to confuse viewers about what was really important in the story. In addition to that, the Goren family drama took center stage and did not relinquish its grip, and so the metaphor of the Bronze star and victim's body treated like trash is all the more evident. Even now, the talk on CI fansites is more about Mr. D'Onofrio's appearance and the emergence of Mother Goren from the shadows than there is talk about what the episode is or should be about. Maybe you have to walk the walk to talk the talk, but as a veteran I feel exploited and disrespected.
|
|
noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
|
Post by noc on Dec 10, 2006 23:39:36 GMT -5
I'm always behind on my reading on the board, so sorry for the delay. I thought it was an ok episode. Just wanted to comment on a couple of issues: 1. I'm not a veteran and didn't really find it disrepectful until I read the board here. Now, I do. I think the writers were probably trying to distract from the real reason for the murder, in terms of the how the victim was portrayed. It was probably also meant to provide some insight into one aspect of Iraq. I do agree that it (the focus on sexual habits) distracted from a story of how intense the relationships formed during war or highly stressful events can be. My guess is the writers were trying to show how different things are and also distract from the real motive. 2. I think we've all felt pretty helpless when a family member is dying or in pain. There is a lot of guilt there. I thought D'Onofrio depicted it well. I guess I wasn't sure if this was the right episode to have this story. Then, I thought, Goren was in the military and maybe that is why his time was so torn between these two issues-the case and his mom. Someone else may have said that earlier.
|
|
|
Post by sarahlee on Dec 11, 2006 1:11:19 GMT -5
II re-watched TWAH and, no offense to those who disagree, but I still believe very strongly that the issue of returning vets and most especially the story about Amanda Dockerty's murder was most definitely trivilialized. The salacious titillating details about her life created an image that service men and women are sexually promiscuous and that the practice is rampant. I don't doubt such behavior occurs, but these details were provided for the sole purpose of either trashing Amanda Dockerty's reputation or to confuse viewers about what was really important in the story. In addition to that, the Goren family drama took center stage and did not relinquish its grip, and so the metaphor of the Bronze star and victim's body treated like trash is all the more evident. Even now, the talk on CI fansites is more about Mr. D'Onofrio's appearance and the emergence of Mother Goren from the shadows than there is talk about what the episode is or should be about. Maybe you have to walk the walk to talk the talk, but as a veteran I feel exploited and disrespected. Thanks for writing that, techguy. I'm no longer angry about the way the news/media/hollyweird portrays the military life, I'm weary of it.
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 11, 2006 6:30:48 GMT -5
but I still believe very strongly that the issue of returning vets and most especially the story about Amanda Dockerty's murder was most definitely trivilialized. The salacious titillating details about her life created an image that service men and women are sexually promiscuous and that the practice is rampant. I don't doubt such behavior occurs, but these details were provided for the sole purpose of either trashing Amanda Dockerty's reputation or to confuse viewers about what was really important in the story. I am sorry Techguy, but I disagree with you here. The ones who where saying that Amanda was promiscuous where the ones who drugged and killed her. Her fiance admitted that he knew she had an affair/one night stand (?) while on tour, and that he forgave her. His reasons made sense to me, They were apart, it was during war time. Things like that happen. It was Amanda who threw the Bronze Star in the trash . That was because she was expected to be part of a cover up for committing murder. Things like that happen in wartime too. Amanda was a young solider, trying to do the right thing. She was torn between her duty as a good soldier following orders, and being a decent human being. I truly got the feeling that her father would have backed her, if she had gone to him. Even IF Amanda was working for the same police department that her dad was in charge of. In the end, family came first, in the Dockerty Family. That is what I saw., and I believe that is the way it should be. As for Goren and his mum, It didnt matter what episode she was going to show up on. Her appearance would have taken center stage. If they do an episode, where Eames hubbys death is a second burner storyline. Most fans of the show will be more interested in that. Cause we have known Eames now for 6 years. We care about her. And if that is soap. Hey, what can I say, except, I enjoy a good crime story. but I have come to know the detectives that solve the crimes. And I care for these characters. Just as much as I cared when Lenny Briscoes daughter was murdered on Law & Order.
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Dec 11, 2006 6:39:52 GMT -5
Techguy, gorensdoppelganger: goren is far from one-dimensional when I read your posts. I've always thought his traumatic upbringing made him into the caring, tolerant and emotionally-stable person he seems to be.
Unlike Death Row, I do think the episode trivialized the armed forces and mader the personnel seem promiscuous and unethical. There didn't seem to be one redeeming character in the army. Someone watching this episode, already predisposed to look at army life and our collective involvement in Iraq as morally wrong, could feel comfortable enough to stop there taking the shows portrayal as proof of their position. I think this is Leight's heavy hand vs Rene's. Rene would have left us with more questions regarding the moral side of the army personnel. He would have shown us as much of the good as well as the bad to get us to keep questioning.
|
|
|
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 11, 2006 9:43:54 GMT -5
Techguy, gorensdoppelganger: goren is far from one-dimensional when I read your posts. I've always thought his traumatic upbringing made him into the caring, tolerant and emotionally-stable person he seems to be. Hi Sirenna, not sure what you're trying to say here, could you please clarify? I never said nor I believed implied that the character of Goren was one dimensional, in fact per my posts, I think I state the opposite. Also, in my post, I to have found him strong, tolerant, and capable in his work life, I won't say the same for his personal as we haven't really seen much of that exhibited. However, this year under Leight, Goren's coping/stability has taken a hit, but can't say based on what he's going through, that it was inappropriate in context. However, it's not the same Goren that made me a fan of the show. My personal taste as I've said I know to many times is from the first few years. I've enjoyed the other seasons, just not with the same passion.
|
|
|
Post by Sirenna on Dec 11, 2006 9:57:24 GMT -5
I'm generally agreeing with you and techguy. It might be clearer to say that I believe Goren acquired more skills as direct result of his childhood and honed the talents he had to become more of a holistic detective. In other words what doesn't kill us makes us stronger!
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Dec 11, 2006 10:08:30 GMT -5
Rene has never, as far as I know, presented an audience with a cardboard villain. Sometimes I wish he would have because it's easy to hate the bad guy when there isn't a shred of goodness in them and the story ends happily when the evil bad person gets locked away, but that's not realistic storytelling. We are all good and we are all evil. The question is one of intent. Cassie, I also cared when Briscoe's daughter was killed ... but, there is a huge difference to me in what was done with that story and what is being done with Eames and Goren. We are getting bombarded with personal stuff, all negative, too. Goren's mother took the focus of this episode, and in a very melodramatic manner. It was just gross to me. [eta: to add relevant quote ]
|
|
|
Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 11, 2006 10:58:07 GMT -5
Thanks, I thought that was what you meant, but wanted to check in with you to be sure. PS, I agree with you too.
|
|
|
Post by sarahlee on Dec 11, 2006 11:48:09 GMT -5
Unlike Death Row, I do think the episode trivialized the armed forces and mader the personnel seem promiscuous and unethical. There didn't seem to be one redeeming character in the army. Someone watching this episode, already predisposed to look at army life and our collective involvement in Iraq as morally wrong, could feel comfortable enough to stop there taking the shows portrayal as proof of their position. I think this is Leight's heavy hand vs Rene's. Rene would have left us with more questions regarding the moral side of the army personnel. He would have shown us as much of the good as well as the bad to get us to keep questioning. ...and that is what I would like to see, more of a balance in the portrayal of life in the Service.
|
|