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Post by Techguy on Dec 11, 2006 20:45:51 GMT -5
OK, just so no one thinks I said Goren is one-dimensional. I see him as complex and conflicted, but what I don't appreciate is seeing the process of his "character development" come at me so suddenly and so forcefully after five seasons of slow revelations. The speed and impact of the changes are too much for my taste, so this season is definitely not on my favorites list.
Cassie, sorry to respectfully disagree with you again. I see the entire focus of TWAH set on the melodrama of Goren and his mother, to the detriment of the story about Amanda Dockerty and why she was killed. I still feel the salacious titillating details about her were totally unnecessary to the REAL story--she was killed because she knew members of her unit retaliated for the killings of two of their members by killing dozens of civilians. This central moral core of Amanda's struggles with her conscience was entirely subsumed by the writers, who somehow felt it was necessary to have Amanda cheat on her fiance with another member of her unit, and then have her fiance excuse her behavior, saying it's understood that such things are OK "in uniform" so long as it doesn't carry over into civilian life. Maybe you don't see these details as disrespectful, but I certainly do. These details portray service men and women who make great sacrifices for their country as promiscuous and amoral, and I am deeply offended by it.
Yes, Amanda throws her Bronze Star into the trash, but given how the writers have already trashed her reputation, I see this action as representative of the writers' attitude toward her, the story behind her murder, and toward veterans in general. That's why I see the scene as a metaphor--the writers are insulting with absolutely no respect for the Amanda character or REAL veterans to treat her so shabbily. The writers have reserved all their empathy for Goren dealing with his mother, and then put the final nail in the coffin of their treatment of Amanda by including the detail of her body trashed in a waste drum. I don't think these details are coincidental; I see them as an overt expression of disdain toward service men and women, and more specifically as a total lack of respect for Amanda and the motive for her murder. I believe what the writers have done in TWAH is reprehensible, and they should be ashamed of themselves.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Dec 11, 2006 21:19:30 GMT -5
Finally got to see the episode in full. It was so not worth the wait. The only thing that saves the episode as a whole is the acting. Because of that, I give it a C+. My first impression when I originally saw the last half only was that Eames needed to give Goren a swift kick in the pants. That opinion hasn't changed. So not the way to behave with somone who has been showing the amount of concern that she did! One detail that caught my eye was the fact that the colour of the Commissioner's leather belt matched his watch strap. The storyline doesn't say much to this air force brat when that's the only detail that impressed. I even watched it through a second time in case I missed out on something.
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Post by Eastsider on Dec 12, 2006 0:47:04 GMT -5
Interesting perspective Eastsider. I too think he is on the verge of crisis, how it will end is anybody's guess at the moment. Welcome to the board! Post away and don't hesitate to stand your ground if you feel strongly convinced. This is one of the more open boards about the show. (I might disagree but I'll always stick up for your right to say it! ) Thanks for the welcome, Sirenna! What I really want to see, for drama's sake, is a flat out yelling match between Bobby and Alex. But not in the middle of the squad room. Maybe on a nice little 12-hour stakeout, where one of them can't just get up and make a break for it, except for a potty break They need to hash things out, eventually. I think there's other stuff going on between those two that even they may not be aware of (No, I don't meant THAT.)
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 12, 2006 7:53:18 GMT -5
Yes, I wasn't crazy about this episode either.
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Post by sobergal95 on Dec 12, 2006 17:40:14 GMT -5
And it was aired originally here in the US exactly 4 weeks ago and we are still discussing it 18 pages, 250 plus postings later! Just 3 more Tuesday night repeats to go till we get a new one! I am sure I am not the only one hoping it will be a Goren/Eames episode Jan 2.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Dec 12, 2006 19:07:28 GMT -5
The Canadian station only aired the episode this past weekend.
Amanda’s dress at the club had very thin spaghetti straps. Yet, Eames found a regular bra with regular sized straps in the woods??
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Post by blucougar57 on Dec 12, 2006 20:08:14 GMT -5
I will finally get to see this episode in the next day or two, and I'm both looking forward to it and dreading it at the same time. I do look forward to putting my two cents worth in, though. ;D
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Post by Cassie on Dec 12, 2006 20:43:19 GMT -5
Techguy,. I think it’s a matter of perspective. You view the show as if the episode was written about the Military. I see it as a story about a family. Amanda could have been a rising star in any prestigious corporation. Her father, one of the most powerful, wealthiest men in the country. And the story could have played out the same way. Girl gets murdered because she knows too much, and was struggling with trying to do the right thing. She was human, had a one night stand, and her fiancé forgave her. The guys who killed her, started rumors that she was a whore. That is what I saw in the story. It was a story about a young woman afraid to go to her parent (s), with a gigantic problem. Amanda did not know what she might have learned about her father. Would he encourage her to be part of the cover up? Would learning that about her father destroy Amanda more then the actual crime?
And I do not believe it was the “intent” of the writers to disrespect the Military. Ever since we realized that we dishonored the veterans that came home from the Vietnam War, I truly believe we as Americans try our best NOT to dishonor the men and woman who have fought so bravely for us and other countries for freedom. We might not always agree with whatever the war is about. But I believe we have become wise in knowing the difference between trashing a veteran/military and trashing a war.
Thank you for listening to my point of view
Trisha, I agree whole heartily , that meeting Mrs. Goren, was a little over the top. Except…. I remember last spring, early summer when Ointmentfly came on board. And told us., to hang on that LOCI was not going to be the same old Daddy O show. (not his exact words) I believe he had said that before Rene Balcer even left the show. So, I am left wondering…If Balcer was still on board , would the same kind of storyline played out? Maybe it might be a little bit different. It just seems like Leight gets a beating around here. I don’t know either man, and I am not taking sides. I am just trying to be objective. To me, it seems like Leight is the new husband . And we are the spouse crying “that’s not the way Rene would have done it” over and over again. I am sorry Balcer had to leave the show. And I do miss his touch. But, I can’t help but wonder from what Ointmenfly had said months back. If Rene’s hands might have been tied as well. And we would still have the lather in our eyes. I could be wrong, but I feel they are setting the stage for the departure of Goren, and possibly Eames. And maybe they just want the characters to go out with a loud bang. Who knows…only time will tell.
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Post by trisha on Dec 12, 2006 21:46:06 GMT -5
Cassie, I want a divorce.
;D snicker.
I think Warren is only getting a beating because he bashed the old seasons and the work of other people in the process of trying to pump up his version of the show. That kind of behavior does grate on my nerves and gives me a low opinion of Warren Leight the person. Warren Leight the writer I have a great deal of respect for. He's written some really great stories -- some of the best of CI. BUT, I can't forget that Rene Balcer polished every one of those episodes and held the series and characters together in a consistent and ... well ... honest manner. So, onto Warren Leight the show-runner ... I don't think Warren is either consistent or honest as a show-runner; not to the premise of the show and not to the characters.
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 13, 2006 7:45:11 GMT -5
Amanda’s dress at the club had very thin spaghetti straps. Yet, Eames found a regular bra with regular sized straps in the woods?? LOL! Well-spotted, Nikki!
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Post by Techguy on Dec 13, 2006 8:16:57 GMT -5
Yes, very well spotted NikkiGreen.
Cassie, we'll just have to agree to disagree about our perceptions of TWAH. However, just like Trisha, I want a divorce too!
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 13, 2006 8:35:28 GMT -5
inlcude me in that too. Irreconcilable differences regarding the shaky-cam and the porno music.
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Dec 13, 2006 9:50:40 GMT -5
Well, I'll stay wedded to this episode, at least. Just watched it again, in the quiet early morning between wrapping presents, with no distraction and time to look at the details, and I grow more impressed with the power and finesse of this episode with each viewing. Sure there are problems which have been discussed at length here, but I like the richness of the fabric despite the flaws.
Re the military issue: I can't see the hideous aspersions myself, although I understand that others may have extremely strong feelings about the issue. What I do see is that, while military personnel may eventually return Stateside, not all of them 'go home". Wesley never left the war; Amanda went home. They both acted out of honor in their own minds - but their codes were unreconcilable. And for me, the way the story unfolded at the end, I could grudgingly sympathise with Wesley as well as Amanda. And yeah, I did like that small but elegantly quiet aria. As for the hypy sex angle, well, that was not so disturbing as it was just inelegantly a beside-the-point red herring (with no bra straps - very nice spotting, NikkiGreen!)
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Post by musicwench on Dec 13, 2006 10:50:07 GMT -5
I'm with you elizabethbay, I like the "richness of the fabric." Nice way of putting it. :-)
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Post by NikkiGreen on Dec 13, 2006 15:34:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately, even the richest of fabrics can be irritating to some. You couldn't get me near the finest of wools, cashmeres, silks and raw silks anymore! Quite possibly I was spoiled by having seen "Chinoiserie" on Mystery just prior to watching this episode. Probable, but I doubt it.
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