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Post by Techguy on Dec 13, 2006 16:08:57 GMT -5
No rich fabrics for me here, just coarse burlap against sunburned skin.
I see no power or finesse either, just sturm und drang melodrama--and contempt for certain personal choices and life experiences that the writers can only dream (have nightmares) about.
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okaadaak
Rookie
Wish I could understand German!
Posts: 32
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Post by okaadaak on Dec 13, 2006 16:35:18 GMT -5
Wow, that really sounds interesting. Over here in Germany they've just started with season four - dubbed of course and no way to watch it in the original version.
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Post by blucougar57 on Dec 13, 2006 20:26:01 GMT -5
My turn. I'm jumping in head-first here, and probably into shallow water, too. I saw TWAH last night, finally, and found it to be nowhere near as traumatic to watch as I was anticipating. Call me hopelessly optimistic, but I didn't view this episode as bleakly as some seem to have done.
Keeping in mind that I only have watched it once so far, and I also got through 'Masquerade', 'Country Crossover' and 'Blasters' last night (it was a big CI night!), I'll try to keep my thoughts as coherent as possible. I know my opinions are going to conflict with others already posted, and I DON'T want to trigger any arguments, so I'll say my piece and be done with it.
I think the episode was well-balanced, and that the sub-plot of Frances Goren's attempted emotional manipulation of her son fitted in with the main plot of the missing daughter.
All the way through the episode, I could almost sense Goren getting ready to explode. We were presented in this episode with a man who was being stretched well beyond his emotional endurance by the demands of his job and the demands of his mother.
Goren has two prime commitments in his life - his mother, and his job. He loves both, and for the most part manages to keep them separated. But in this instance there was a very big clash.
It's been clear all through the previous five seasons that he doesn't freely discuss his mother with anyone, not even Eames. So it was no surprise that he wouldn't respond to Eames' queries about her. Think back to ITWSH, when Eames walked in on him when he was on the phone to Carmel Ridge. When he hung up, she asked him if his mother was ok, and he couldn't answer her directly then. I think he appreciated her efforts, but the increasing stress of the whole situation was too much for him to cope with. The guy might be a supercop, but he's still only human.
I'm not saying that Eames and Ross weren't also stressed and upset at having their Thanksgivings interrupted. They were, and Goren was very much in the wrong for not acknowledging that. He owes them both a very big apology for disrespecting them like he did. Especially Eames, who was walking a very awkward tightrope in trying to be understanding towards him, and keeping him in line with Ross at the same time. (He told her in ‘Blind Spot’ to let him know if he could help her to keep an eye on him – maybe now it’s time she reminded him of that!) He also knew he’d screwed up with Eames, when she brushed him off in the bullpen. But he was too stressed to be able to do anything to rectify it right then.
At the same time, though, I found his behaviour and attitude to be understandable, given how badly his mother was trying to manipulate him. (And what a wonderful performance from Rita Moreno!! [Hope I got that right] I'd never quite been able to picture Frances Goren in my mind, but she portrayed her very nicely.) I think the most telling part was when he took the call from her while in the house. The distress in his face was very clear. It’s a horrible, horrible feeling when you’re torn between responsibilities like that, and everyone has their breaking point. Personally, I like seeing this more human side of Goren – a man who is just as vulnerable as anyone else, and does actually lose control from time to time. I just don’t believe that the situation presented to us in TWAH is irreversible.
I don’t see this episode as the end of anything, least of all the Goren/Eames partnership. And certainly not a death knell for the character of Goren. If Ross can’t handle conflicts with his detectives, then he’ll turn out to be a pretty poor captain. And I don’t believe that’s the case.
When Goren walked out at the end of the episode, making that comment about not caring if Ross fired him, I believe that was simply a case of him finally being stretched beyond his boundaries. He’d had enough, and he needed to just walk away from all of it, even Eames. I know damn well that I feel like that from time to time with work. The stresses and tensions just become so much that you want to just scream, say ‘Screw everyone’, and walk out, and not have any regard for the consequences. So when Goren first had his little tantrum where he spring-cleaned his desk, and then walked out on Eames and Ross, I really could relate. When your work situation is bad, and your family situation is worse, your left between that proverbial rock and a hard place, and there’s just nowhere to turn.
I’m not going to comment on the case aspect of the episode, except that I feel increasingly concerned that the sexualised violence that has been an ongoing topic here hasn’t decreased. Instead, it seems to have taken root as a regular feature, and that’s a worry. It’s something that I really feel belongs more to shows like SVU, and not CI. I’m more concerned about that than the potential soap factor, actually. Particularly because I know that I, for one, am pretty much numbed to it on TV.
I just hope that it doesn’t overwhelm the show. But I won’t be holding my breath, either.
Ending this on a positive note, I like the episode. I liked being introduced to Frances Goren, and I think they managed to walk the line without falling completely into that soapy stuff on the other side. That’s just my opinion, of course. The episode perhaps doesn’t warrant an A+, but I wouldn’t give it anything lower than a B.
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 14, 2006 7:56:30 GMT -5
Excellent point, BC, about the frequency and type of violence lately! I think so too.
Reviewing this episode (in my mind because I never taped it unfortunately) I have changed my position a bit with respect to the interaction between G and E as G got into the elevator. It's probably Vincent's acting choice that gave extra depth to the scene but I noticed that after he brushed Eames' concern away so brusquely, he looked unhappy, guilty even about doing so but at the same time as if he was locked in a mindset that wouldn't let him do anything else.
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Post by blucougar57 on Dec 14, 2006 17:14:44 GMT -5
Good to see you back Blucougar. Are you watching the cricket test downunder? It keeps interrupting my BBC world service radio...and Im sick of hearing about your sunshine! damn the world turning! Thanks. I'm trying to avoid all things cricket at the moment. And you're welcome to our sunshine. We're all praying for rain. Half of our state is currently on fire - no exaggeration. They're predicting the fires that are raging at the moment will be worse than the Ash Wednesday fires. It's very bad. Your thoughts are interesting. What is "bullpen"? i dont know that. The 'bullpen' is the nickname given to the space in the squadroom where the detectives' desks are located. Yes the whispering of "Mum" was beautifully done,centred. And his loss of control was much more Goren and ambiguous than when he lost control in Blind Spot over Eames.He really thought about it as well as feeling himself into it. Some craftsman,eh? Yes, he is indeed. The misery in his expression was a fic writer's dream-come-true! LOL Seriously, that scene was something special. You could see... and almost taste the desperation he was feeling. He'd just reached breaking point by the end, and I don't think he had any real sense of control left. I hope - I really do hope - that the writers will incorporate at least one or two small scenes, non case related, that show Goren and Eames talking this out. It doesn't have to be the end of the world - friends are perfectly capable of having fights, and then making up again. There's no reason why that can't be the case here. Reviewing this episode (in my mind because I never taped it unfortunately) I have changed my position a bit with respect to the interaction between G and E as G got into the elevator. It's probably Vincent's acting choice that gave extra depth to the scene but I noticed that after he brushed Eames' concern away so brusquely, he looked unhappy, guilty even about doing so but at the same time as if he was locked in a mindset that wouldn't let him do anything else. Remember Rene Balcer's comment in the interview he gave us? On screen, Vincent D'Onofrio does nothing by accident. So, in that light, I think you're probably right. He probably hated himself for behaving like that towards her, but he was already incredibly stressed, and really, she just picked the wrong moment to go at him. It was the right thing to say, but the wrong time to say it. I think, when he came back later on and tried talking to her about how to handle the suspect, he was hoping that she would just brush off the fight. Instead, she brushed him off, and the way he just dropped into his chair as she walked away was very telling. I know that nuance - it was almost painful for me to watch it. When I was younger, my parents used to fight long and viciously over my sister's behaviour. It was physically and emotionally painful to watch them fight, and whenever there was a break in the fighting, I'd jump in and raise a subject that was as far away from the subject of the fighting as I could manage. It was the only way I knew to stop them from fighting, and I saw that vividly in VDO's portrayal of that scene. He was talking to Eames, hoping desperately that she'd follow his lead and allow his bad behaviour towards her to be forgotten, but she dismissed him instead. And that, in turn, was probably more painful to him than any sharp retort she could have made.
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Dec 14, 2006 17:57:08 GMT -5
What a close and insightful reading, Blu. Lotta warmth in your take, too. (Not tiny bushfire advance sparks at your feet, I trust ) You caught the intensity of the action/reaction so well.
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Post by blucougar57 on Dec 14, 2006 19:55:10 GMT -5
What a close and insightful reading, Blu. Lotta warmth in your take, too. (Not tiny bushfire advance sparks at your feet, I trust ) You caught the intensity of the action/reaction so well. There have actually been smaller fires down my way, but thankfully nothing the local fieries can't control. But for the better part of this week, all of Melbourne and all the way out to the Bellarine Peninsula have been covered in a thick layer of smoke from the major fires. It's scary stuff, and apparently three of the biggest fires are on the cusp of merging into one huge fire front. If that happens, God help us. As for catching the intensity of those scenes, it's probably the first time ever when watching CI that I've experienced an emotional connection to something that was on the show. I stil don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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Post by sobergal95 on Dec 22, 2006 3:28:12 GMT -5
I thought the mother said something to the effect that they had lived in Ireland for awhile, so Amanda had two passports.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Dec 22, 2006 3:44:56 GMT -5
IIRC, the Dockertys lived there for a year after their marriage. Amanda was born in Ireland, so, consequently, she had dual passports.
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Dec 22, 2006 21:55:11 GMT -5
Most definitely the lion and unicorn. No harp.
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 23, 2006 15:13:37 GMT -5
Poor girl, she was colonized.
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Post by Sirenna on Dec 23, 2006 16:00:00 GMT -5
Most of the time they do a good job with the details. For instance they managed to get a pretty good facsimile of an Ontario driver's license for an episode - I forget which one. Nikki would know though
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Post by ragincajun on Dec 26, 2006 14:42:34 GMT -5
I think, when he came back later on and tried talking to her about how to handle the suspect, he was hoping that she would just brush off the fight. Instead, she brushed him off, and the way he just dropped into his chair as she walked away was very telling. When my husband and I argue, after a awhile he will start talking to me like it never happened. But I tend to hold a grudge longer, sometimes waking up the next morning talking to him then after an hour or so say, hey wait a min. I am suppose to be mad at you, lol. Maybe its the same with Bobby and Alex. RC
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Post by drsues on Jan 1, 2007 2:09:37 GMT -5
I hope this doesn't ramble too much, but some observations. As was revealed to us, Goren knew his "mommy" was different when he was 7. I believe this is what has fueled his interest in learning what makes people tick. As to being her caretaker for most of his life, I think the path he took was to bail at 18 to go into the Army. He traded the chaos of his home life for the disciplined life of the military, and he couldn't have gotten farther away from home than that; serving in Europe, China, etc. I suspect that something brought him back home rather than to make the army a career. He took responsibility for his mom, maybe after his father passed away; maybe some crisis with his brother.
Goren does not like being confronted with evaluations of himself: in Badge when Goren called himself frugal and had it pointed out all the ways he was not frugal by Randal; when Nelda "saw" how he cared for her. I think his issue with people getting close is an experience of the manipulation he has experienced from his mother. That kind of intimacy gives people the opportunity to push your buttons. He knows that his mother pushes his buttons, but he doesn’t have any defense against it.
The Goren and Alex we see this season are not, nor could be, the people of season 1. They are six years older; he and Alex have experienced numerous things professionally and personally. I think that what we are missing is the "exquisite extraction" of information from evidence and perps that is the hallmark of earlier LOCI episodes.
With that said: I think the frustration for Goren in this episode is that he has her surgery scheduled for Thanksgiving with the expectation of being there to support his mom, and is probably hopeful to get a favorable prognosis. Instead, he's called in and as the story unfolds, he and Eames are there because you only bring out the best for the deputy commissioner. This case didn't exactly stretch Goren’s abilities, and that didn't show him to his best advantage with the DC or Ross. Goren has been put in a position of having to prove himself all over again. (Didn’t he already apply and get hired for this gig?)
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Jan 1, 2007 4:37:19 GMT -5
II think that what we are missing is the "exquisite extraction" of information from evidence and perps that is the hallmark of earlier LOCI episodes. Mmm Mmm Mmm. What a fine way to pin that 'exquisite extraction' of a thought. Another quote to be engraved in gold and nailed to the doors of Chelsea Piers.
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