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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 2, 2007 17:12:36 GMT -5
One more point to debate.....Did Daddy Goren know about the affair. And if he did, was that the reason he left. We know from Mama Goren that she had Brady do some shelf work and made no attempt to hide it. But perhaps her husband saw it as merely her attempt to make him jealous and pay more attention to her. The timeline, I believe, was Mama having the affair sometime up to 1961. Novemeber 1961 Frances is assaulted by Brady and in that time frame Bobby is conceived but she is still having sex with her husband and that is why the parentage issue is in question. Bobby's father left when he was around 11? So Mama Goren's affair seemed distant history. I think the main reason he skipped out on the family at that time was her illness. Perhaps he had dealt with it as long as he could and finally decided to leave. Bobby made some remark in Legion that he could smell the other women on his father. How old was he?
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 2, 2007 17:13:21 GMT -5
Mr. Goren left his "poor sick wife" when Bobby was 11 years old. Probably because she was displaying signs of mental illness & the creep didn't want to deal with it anymore He also cheated on the lady for years & was absent most of the time throughout their marriage. My guess is he never knew about Frances' affair with Brady. As a result, he has no idea that Bobby nay not be his.
My feeling is that Frances has effectively kept the secret of Bobby's questionable paternity from everyone, with only herself & Brady knowing the awful possible truth. That's quite a feat for a mentally ill woman. To have it come out after all of these years in the last days of her life is somehow sad. Some secrets are better left in the grave. To me, it would have been kinder for everyone all around if this didn't have to come out.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 2, 2007 17:25:06 GMT -5
Hit the post button too soon. Sorry. Bobby's father had been a man about town, and all that entails, for quite some time. I believe his finally leaving the family was due to a combination of his wife's deteriorating mental state, his desire to come and go without hassle and angst. I can only imagine the tension/hostility/chaos in the household when all members were present. I'm not sure that he was aware of what his wife had done and with whom she had done it. Cassie is right about Brady being nailed for the crimes in the 80s and 90s. If Bobby was 11ish when dad left than that would put that about 1972. Brady was doing bad things then but no one knew he was. Any input on this timeline is welcome and needed.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 2, 2007 17:29:28 GMT -5
Donnajo I think you and I are looking at this the same way.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 2, 2007 17:36:51 GMT -5
I know it was quite a shock for Bobby to find out that Brady might be his biological father. I was just wondering if Bobby might as some point be glad he found this out? Not because he liked the guy, but because it might help him understand more about himself and any inner demons he is struggling with. Perhaps he will check his DNA and get a definitive answer. What an "either or".......rapist/killer or slime ball irresponsible cheater.
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Post by deathroe on Aug 2, 2007 20:50:47 GMT -5
Another perspective: Bobby's discovery re Mark Brady could mean a lessening of his emotional baggage with regard to Goren SR. True, Brady is the worse of two evils, but if he's not Goren SR's son, Bobby doesn't have to take Goren SR's inadequacies on himself. This is significant for how the show is set up because Goren SR was always a reference point: "still full of spite for his dead father."
I do still wonder if Brady wasn't just messing with Goren, as Ross suggested. Brady was selfish--he was confessing (if Goren is to be believed) because he was afraid of death. He had no good reason to tlead Goren to question his own paternity, and every bad reason. (Also, as I may have speculated before, the primary relationship that is illuminated for through the Brady thing is his relationship with Frances Goren: my mother was never the same, something changed. Parallels are drawn between Bobby and Frances in this episode and in others.)
*side note: the value of confession, what confession does, what it entails, how it helps has been disproportionately emphasized in S6. : "if you confess, it feels better." Even as confession has always been a value of the show: Goren's success as a detective is measured by his ability to extract confessions. And what if Goren were to reveal or to confess his inmost self? It might conflict with the logic of the show (cf. Eames' out-of-place revelations in S5). But maybe that's where things are headed. I wonder.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 2, 2007 21:03:14 GMT -5
Novemeber 1961 Frances is assaulted by Brady and in that time frame Bobby is conceived but she is still having sex with her husband and that is why the parentage issue is in question. Bobby's father left when he was around 11? Bobby was conceived Nov 1961, the assault took place, I think 4 yrs later, when Frank had to take care of Bobby when mom went away with Uncle Mark and Dad went to the hotel by the track and mom got in her "wreck" and had to stay at grandma's and get better. I think the sex was consensual when Bobby was conceived, if Brady is the father, it wasn't rape.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 2, 2007 22:07:08 GMT -5
RAGINCAJUN---- My mistake, I had a mental pfffft.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 3, 2007 8:51:36 GMT -5
My take is that Mrs. Goren honestly doesn't know if Bobby's father was Brady or the senior Goren, that she was having sex with both Goren and Brady around the time of Bobby's conception. And that whatever happened at Brady's cabin occurred, as ragincajun said, four years later.
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 3, 2007 13:01:37 GMT -5
RAGINCAJUN---- My mistake, I had a mental pfffft. lately my mind is pffffft. lol
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Post by Patcat on Aug 3, 2007 13:11:55 GMT -5
My mind is like a steel trap--everything seeps right through it (g)
Patcat
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Post by Techguy on Aug 3, 2007 23:19:01 GMT -5
My take is that Mrs. Goren honestly doesn't know if Bobby's father was Brady or the senior Goren, that she was having sex with both Goren and Brady around the time of Bobby's conception. Some secrets are better left in the grave. I agree 100% with both of you. And given Goren's options of Brady or Goren Sr. as his biological father, it's all the more reason for me that it isn't necessary for Goren to find out who his "real" father is. I don't see how that knowledge will help him move on with his life. Besides that, he's already done quite well for himself distancing himself from the man he grew up believing was his father. Will knowing it's really Brady--or not--change the past or influence his choices for the future? I don't think so.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 3, 2007 23:32:39 GMT -5
For a man whose driven to find the truth, I wonder if Goren can let the question of his pedigree fade into his past. Will it be that unanswered question that nags him, slips into his dreams or will it be a locked box that he never intends to open? Hurry up new season!!!!!
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Post by Cassie on Aug 3, 2007 23:43:08 GMT -5
Will knowing it's really Brady--or not--change the past or influence his choices for the future? I don't think so. Yeah, sorry, I believe if Goren just learned he was adopted, like most adopted people, young or old. upon learning that they are adopted they would want to search out who their biological parents are. Just so they know they weren't conceived from a serial killer. I would need to know if I was him.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 4, 2007 8:14:12 GMT -5
I hope, as Techguy stated, that Goren doesn't feel it's necessary to pursue (through DNA testing) whether he was sired by Brady or not. It shouldn't matter in terms of who he is & who he will become. However, as diablodeblanco stated, and Cassie seconded, can Goren "let the question of his pedigree fade into his past," or "will it be that unanswered question that nags him, slips into his dreams?" Knowing him as we do, it's doubtful. Whatever the decision is for Goren's backstory, I personally want to know what that decision was. I want them to tell us, the viewers, in some short dialog, ideally in the season premier. Only because I know I'll (we'll?) analyze every sad look, strange gesture or ambiguous comment by Bobby from now on as an indicator that he knows or doesn't know.
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