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Post by Patcat on Nov 16, 2004 10:56:17 GMT -5
So, I'm thinking (always dangerous)--Bobby Goren goes by a lot of different names. He's "Bobby" to Alex when she's in a good mood or being supportive to him. He's "Goren" when she's upset with him, or when she's referring to him with a third party she doesn't know well. Deakins calls him "Bobby" most of the time, particularly when he's in a light mood, but when he calls him "Goren" it's almost always because Goren is in trouble. Carver calls him "Detective" (and is there anyone else besides Courtney Vance who can give that title so many different meanings?), perhaps to keep their relationship on a professional basis (come to think of it, Goren often calls Carver "Counselor", often in a lighthearted way, and Carver frequently calls Eames "Detective" as well). Goren uses "Bob" or "Robert" only when he's undercover, or when he seems to want to be someone else. SEMI-DETACHED is a good example, where Goren calls himself "Bob" (I think) when he speaks to Nelda. "Bobby" is a diminutive name, one used more for a boy than a man. Goren accepts it, and certainly doesn't seem trouble by it. Is it, I wonder, an attempt to go against his large physical size and his considerable brain, to get others to let down their guard and/or be more accepting of him? And are Deakins, and especially, Eames aware of this, and is this why they use the name affectionately? Patcat (who may be over analyzing..)
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Post by trisha on Nov 16, 2004 13:01:56 GMT -5
I think you've circle the meanings pretty well without actually naming them It all has to do with intimacy. There is something very intimate about calling someone by their first name, or by a nickname like Bobby. While Eames refers to Goren as "Bobby," especially when they are alone or conversing on a more personal level, Goren has never called her Alex, except when introducing her to someone else during a ruse. This suggests to me that he is still actively distancing himself from her, the way many people do in professional capacities. There is another form of intimacy among friends, and an even more complex bond between police partners and military units. This comes from routinely putting their lives in each other's hands. Without knowing a large percentage of police and their partners, and witnessing them together at work, I cannot say if it is truly odd that Goren would still be calling Eames by her last name even when they are alone and talking about personal matters, but it does seem to me that they should have reached a point where it is okay for him to call her Alex. But, for whatever reason, he chooses not to. Deakins relationship with both Eames and Goren is more complex. While he would like them to know he is on their side and uses their first names to evoke a personal and friendly relationship, he is still their superior. They cannot use his first name when speaking to him -- that would be dismissive of his rank. I agree that the situation deems whether or not he calls them by their first or last names. I think that Carver's use of "Detective" is also a distancing behavior. His relationship with them is strictly professional, and while he respects what they do, he respects what he does more, and assumes a superior position. He is not there to make friends, even if he does respect them as decent people and good civil servants. I believe that Goren has only been called "Bob" once, and that was by Eames to the perp in Baggage. He asked Nelda to call him Robert -- this is actually more significant than Bob or Bobby. I agree that part of wanting to be called Bobby has something to do with it being a child's name, which makes him more "normal" and approachable. That is why asking Nelda to call him by his given name was so powerful. It seemed that he was asking her to see the real Robert Goren: genius detective; traumatized child; motherless boy; lonely man.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 16, 2004 18:46:32 GMT -5
Trisha, Patcat: Great answer to an interesting question. I thought Bobby asking Nelda to call him Robert was a distancing tactic and Alex calling Bobby, Bobby was closer to the real deal. I know Alex called him Bobby most significantly in POI after he realised E/N had orchestrated his part in Conroy's suicide. This was a low point, maybe the lowest, in the lifecycle of Goren, the detective. Eames was the only one to enter his inner circle, so tight it consisted only of him and his reflection in the mirror. When she called him Bobby then, he was very down. Kathryn Erbe gave the scene and Eames, a lot of compassion and strength which bouyed him visibly by the end of that scene. This makes me think 'Bobby' is closer to what Goren prefers and allows a trusted few to use. In 'Silver Lining', Eames was interrogating the wife about how committed her husband, the thief, was. The wife shot back something about "what Eames' husband was like?" Eames grimaced and instead of answering with something close to the truth which Goren does, she retorted with the line about how her "partner [Goren] wanted to be left alone to catch his bad guys." She took her personal life out of the interrogation and used a personal item about Goren to maintain control of the interview. Goren, on the other hand, never backs down in a similar situation. When any perp, most insiduously E/N, turns the tables and tries to probe Goren's mind, he lets them. He answers questions about his mother. He talks about his father to conroy, his brother in Gemini, etc. He's either reckless or reluctant to give ground in the battles which the interrogations are (which to me seems a bit stubborn.) Or he's so confident of his emotional strength, he feels he can endure the probe in order to catch his bad guy and come out unscathed at the end. One of his tools to achieving this is the specific use of his name. I don't know, though, if it's been working for him in Season four, particularly with Nelda, John. But when she called him Robert it had this old-world feel to it. Rather than creating an intimacy around the two of them, I thought she sounded, and acted, more like his grandmother who weirdly wanted to be 'closer' to him.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 16, 2004 21:09:12 GMT -5
Yes, with Nelda the "Robert" seemed more formal. She may have thought it a sign of intimacy, but since it wasn't what we've seen Eames used I thought Goren used it to lead her on, give her a sense of closeness but without the complete effect on him.
I think Goren does try to maintain professionalism with his coworkers, or maybe it's a habit from his army days to call people by their last name. I dunno, Techguy, am I off on this? I think part of it is he might not want to make Eames uncomfortable--not that she'd object to the name so much, but that'd put him one step closer to her private, personal life (which she seems to want to keep private).
Carver is professional expanded, of course with Vance's voice he don't need more than "detective"! Although again, he's a lawyer, they're cops, the two don't seem to mix much. Part of it is his hot/cold relationship with Goren, I think, and if he hasn't heard anybody call Eames by "Alex" who is he to start?
Deakins, as captain, is more paternal in his approach, with Eames at least. But I don't recall first names being terribly common with him, he's used them but not so as they stood out (to me at least). Besides, the whole officer-rank thing would be a factor.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Nov 17, 2004 15:07:49 GMT -5
:)janetcatbird intresting points i agree with your take on why goren calls alex eames.
i might say i sort of agree with take on the way carver adresses eames although i think there has deifnatley been noticable tension between the two at times so he may also not think it aporriate to use her first name.
i remmber deakins called alex by her first name pretty early in the first episode, her also called goren detective. which was kind of a hoot but it was showed that alex has deakins trust and they have known each other for a while.
as for the way they all adress goren. deakins tends to call him bobby, detective when is busy and wants his attenion i a hurry or the like and goren when he is in trouble.
eames calls goren bobby most of the time, she uses goren when she needs to get his attention or when he is in trouble.
and carver just uses detective mostly because it is his manner and i he still has diffrences of oppion with the way they operate.
reagrds rom.
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Post by det1stgrade on Nov 19, 2004 15:30:03 GMT -5
I think its pretty natural for Eames and Deakins to call Goren "Bobby." Underneath the "formality" of the job, one gets the impression that they ARE *friends.* Goren always introduces himself to children as "Bobby" just to seem less intimidating. The impression I got when Goren asked Nelda to call him "Robert" was because Goren was picking up a vibe from her that maybe she was a little uptight or "prissy" so he wanted to feed into that role and come off as "mature." I hate when Nicole calls him "Bobby" --AS IF they're intimate friends.
...just an afterthought. Can someone tell me Bobby's middle name? I read somewhere that his middle initial was "O" --- Also, are those his initials on that tie clip he always wears? I keep trying to freeze my tapes & dvd's but can't make it out clearly.
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Post by NikkiGreen on Nov 19, 2004 19:24:07 GMT -5
Can someone tell me Bobby's middle name? I read somewhere that his middle initial was "O"... *We* only know that the middle initial is "O". This was revealed in the first Elizabeth/Nicole episode Anti-Thesis. She's in her apartment and takes a piece of paper out the printer just as "thesis man" comes into the bedroom, wrapped in a towel (presumably after having just showered). She then proceeded to tell him to have his gum and get into bed (the camera shows the viewer what's written on the piece of paper).
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Post by Patcat on Dec 20, 2004 10:37:32 GMT -5
I noticed during this weekend's rerun of PAS DE DEUX that Goren asks the woman bank robber to call him "Robert" when they meet at the dance studio. So, perhaps it's the standard name he uses when he's encountering suspects?
Patcat
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Post by Enthralled on Dec 20, 2004 22:51:33 GMT -5
Patcat I agree - I think he uses Robert for perps - I noticed this as well with Maggy the dancing bomb woman - he did the same with the now infamous Nelda - made me feel a tad bit better about that epi...if Balcer wanted to stir the pot with semi-detatched, he certainly did - I still can't get that one out of my mind. It really did set the tone for the season. I have rationalized that he did not get emotionally involved with Nelda, but may have regretted the tactics he took to nail her. I also believe Eames knew he was at the apartment in the last scene. Eames is his partner - he wouldn't do that to her - it would compromise the trust that they have in their relationship as partners - and Bobby values that too much to give it up for Nelda - she's a murder for heaven's sakes!
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KMC
Rookie
Posts: 24
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Post by KMC on Jan 13, 2005 22:46:16 GMT -5
I think it's pretty obvious that people he considers friends...Eames, Deakins, Lewis...and who know who else in his life...know him as "Bobby". Robert seems to be the name his uses when he is...pretending...to offer a level of intimacy to someone...as part of an investigation. Nelda is the best example....though I think he was, at least at first, a bit disarmed by her and her concern...and I think that his use of "Robert" was very necessary for him in that instance...he needed to distance himself...while disarming her. He did feel something for her...if only pity...which I think was obvious from their last exchange...the statement that he hadn't meant for her to see that he cared...means on some level...if only for a moment...he did...hence the need for distance.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Feb 18, 2005 11:50:15 GMT -5
carver's 'detective' could also be a display of athority, he is always pressing it on both og them, esp Bobby thats probably why he & bobby dont get along.
It seems that deakins at times takes on a 'fatherly' role with his people doesnt it? it also calls eames by her first name. the reason he calls bobby by his last name might be a habit borne from having kids parhaps? i know when she's aggrivated w/me my mother still calls me by my first & middle name LOL even though i'm 23 yrs old now & it still has the same effect. the same effect it does when Bobby has it done to him, by eames or otherwise, he makes him stop & recoil.
i was thinking the same thing why bobby calls alex 'eames' instead of by her first name the way she does him (he doesnt seem to be offended by it) he does seem to keep her at arms length most of them time, i wonder why that is? do you think we'll find that out?
for reference; i did miss most of season 2 due to conflicts with a sick old horse i'm sad to say so i'm waiting with bated breath for the DVD's to come out LOL.
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Post by EamesandGorenfan88 on Mar 27, 2005 15:07:43 GMT -5
It sounds like a similar thing to the 'Carter/Sir' thing on Stargate. Keeping up the proverbial wall between them and only using first names in very personal circumstances. However I could be (and frequently am) wrong, I'm a newbie after all! Hi everyone *waves*
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Post by BegToDiffer on Mar 29, 2005 13:28:18 GMT -5
When questioned about the middle initial by a viewer, Rene Balcer answered that it was just an "O.", it stands for nothing. It comes from an old Cary Grant movie, where the character was named Roger O. Thornhill. (That O also stood for nothing.)
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Post by blucougar57 on Apr 12, 2005 17:42:25 GMT -5
Hi, first post to this forum from me - thanks, Observer, for the clue-in.
I agree that 'Bobby' is Goren's preferred choice for those that he is reasonably close to. I remember the first time in an episode that I heard Eames call him Bobby, and it seriously piqued my interest. But it's also telling that he never calls her by her first name. It seems to me that he has been willing to let her get close to him, but not so much vice-versa. Whether that is his choice or hers, I don't know. Also, I don't recall Deakins ever calling him Bobby. Can anyone recall an ep where that actually happened? I can only recall Deakins calling him Goren.
One thing I thought was interesting, though, is that Vincent himself seems to think of his character as 'Bobby'. I can remember at least one interview where he specifically refers to the character of Goren as 'Bobby'. This suggests to me that whenever he introduces himself as 'Robert', or even 'Bob', it is with the intention of wanting to keep a certain amount of distance.
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Post by det1stgrade on Apr 19, 2005 10:29:21 GMT -5
In S1, "The Good Doctor," Deakins does tell Alex: "I have to go with Bobby on this one."
So, he did refer to Goren as "Bobby" ...just didn't call him that directly, tho Bobby was standing in the office w/ them.
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