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Post by Patcat on Oct 19, 2005 11:43:20 GMT -5
Ok, I'm doing some thinking (always dangerous):
Now, I'm not a LAW AND ORDER junkie--I backed into this world via LOCI and know little about SVU and even less about the mothership. But, it seems to me we've got a lot of "damaged" male characters running around these shows. The audience has just learned about Elliot Stabler's abuse; I recall hints that Jack McCoy's childhood was something less than ideal. Mike Logan's mother was an abusive alcoholic; I also seem to recall that Lennie Briscoe didn't have an easy time of it growing up. And then there's Goren...
But most of the female characters, with the exception of Olivia Benson, seem to come from strong, happy backgrounds.
So, am I noticing something here or just fumbling in the dark?
Patcat
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Post by janetcatbird on Oct 19, 2005 13:44:04 GMT -5
Oh, Patcat, you just set me off! I think the women have their own share of troubles, but either they adjusted better than the men or the writers just don't make as many references to it.
ANITA VAN BUREN Probably the best off of any character. In "Aftershock" she wrote a letter to her mother about the man who'd been executed, hinting that they were close enough to confide. We saw her husband, who seemed like a very nice/understanding/ all-around good guy. Two kids, I think she got a phone call one time because one of them got in trouble at school but nothing major I know of. Her troubles seem to be professional--catching flack from upper brass, the discrimination and lack of promotion.
CLAIRE KINCAID didn't have the best relationship with her mother, her stepfather was one of her law-school professors who she went to talk to in "Aftershock". Other than a refrence about Harvard law school, and an affair with a judge coming back to bite her in the butt, we don't know too much.
JAIME ROSS presumably happy growing up, she made mention of several brothers so a large family. Ex-husband was a Grade A buttwipe, custody issues for her daughter Katie during her years as a regular. But when she came back for guest appearances we found out that she married a nice guy named David and was doing well.
ABBEY CARMICHAEL don't know much about her growing up, but she was date-raped as a freshman in college.
SERENA SOUTHERLYN apparently disillusioned with religion, she mentioned how she loved the Christmas Eve mass when she was little and longed to feel that sense of belonging and peace again. At least one brother. But we don't know much about her family or a specific reason why she drifted away fromt he church...is it because she's a lesbian?
ALEXANDRA BORGIA I've seen maybe three episodes with her and don't know diddly.
As to the guys, I think the first few detectives (Max Greevy, Phil Ceretta) were relatively OK, except for Greevy as recovering alcoholic. Married, family men, they'd seen some rough stuff on the job but those were also the early years (seasons 1-2) when you really didn't catch much.
DON CRAGEN: former alcoholic, recovered. Married, at least until his wife--a flight attendant-- died in a plane crash. (Dad saw the SVU episode where he tells Olivia about that, unfortuantley I missed it but it was supposed to be well-done.)
PAUL ROBINETTE: Raised Catholic. We know very little about him, except that "[his]mother still has all [his]old report cards" and his grandfather had to undergo chemotherapy. Race issues showed that he was trying to be a professional, really hoping to not let it be an issue for his own life. Left to become a defense attourney, focused on race issues having redefined himself as "a black man who's a lawyer", rather than the other way around. (I'm so excited, he's coming back as a guest to the mothership in a few episodes!!!)
MIKE LOGAN: Alcoholic/abusive mother. Narrowly escaped a pedophile priest (his friend, a victim, recruited several guys but "Mikey" slugged him and ran away). Several girlfriends, I don't think he was ever married or had kids.
LENNY BRISCOE: we know about the ex-wives. Two daughters, one (estranged) shot by drug dealers after testifying in court. I don't think his growing up was especially traumatic, I think it was just lower-class rough neighborhood and his parents weren't especially close, but I never heard about any abuse or abandonment.
BEN STONE: Not too close with his father, who wanted him to be a doctor. I think he was divorced with a daughter, but again, early years.
ADAM SCHIFF: The episode where his wife died tore me apart. References to grandchildren. Most of the problems came form old friends who turned out corrupt, or election/political trouble.
REY CURTIS: father was a harsh disciplinarian. Several siblings. Temporarily separated from his wife after a 1-time fling, three little girls. Wife has MS, that was the reason he left, and we haven't heard since.
ED GREEN: several references to his mother, in the episode where he was shot we saw an older woman in his hospital room patting his arm. According to the Coffee Table book L&O put out last year, his father thought that it was beneath Ed to be a cop, some issues there but I don't recall any thing specific being said on screen. Gambling problem referenced in his first few episodes.
JOE FONTANA: Someone who's watched his episodes speak up, all I know is Fancy Chicago.
As to SVU, I'm not the best. We all know about Olivia as a rape-baby, but I don't know anything for Alex Cabot or Casey Novak. M.E. Warner has mentioned a husband once or twice, what little we see her she seems pretty settled. Don't know anything about George Huang, either, except that he couldn't do close interviews at the FBI when he forgot the safe zone or boundary and a prisoner/suspect type attacked him
JOHN MUNCH: Think Lenny, only slightly meaner. Several ex-wives, no kids. Don't know much about his growing up, but I think "Homicide: Life on the Street" might be a better place to look. We do know that his father committed suicide, the last time Munch spoke to him was a fight. "My father punished me for being a wise-ass. I told him I hated his guts...those were the last words I ever said to him." (Belzer and Marlee Matlin were so good in their scenes together...)
ODAFIN TUTUOLA: One estranged son--who we just found out was gay-- I don't think he was married to Ken's mother. Rough work in narcotics. I don't know much else.
I know that nobody's perfect, but this seems a little ridiculous. Can't they have one or two regular characters who are well-adjusted and content without any major demons? Or at least have religions other than Practicing Catholicism and Angry Rejection of Everything? Just because someone attends regular worship or participates in a faith community doesn't make them stupid, gullible or naive. (The early years had several good old Catholic boys: Ben Stone, Greevy, and I believe Ceretta, but the only recent active participant in anything was Curtis.) New York is a big place, they gotta have at least a couple Protestants somewhere in there, so I'm wondering just how representative these characters are. But that's just me.
--Catbird
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Post by Patcat on Oct 19, 2005 14:15:21 GMT -5
The Catholic thing is probably another thread entirely, but there's a lot of Catholics, or at least ex-Catholics, wandering around the L&O universe. Dick Wolf was an alter boy at St. Patrick's, the Catholic cathedral in New York City.
Patcat
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Post by NikkiGreen on Oct 19, 2005 17:56:08 GMT -5
Catbird, we don't really know too much about Fontana's character. Only what we've seen: ---lots of cash in his money clip ---wears really expensive suits and accessories, like Gucci loafers. We've also learned that he was a cop in NY, before he went to Chicago. ETA: We also learned from "Aftershock" that McCoy's father was a real SOB, who liked to use his mother as a punching bag.  |
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Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 19, 2005 21:36:35 GMT -5
As to SVU, I'm not the best. We all know about Olivia as a rape-baby, but I don't know anything for Alex Cabot or Casey Novak. M.E. Warner has mentioned a husband once or twice, what little we see her she seems pretty settled. Don't know anything about George Huang, either, except that he couldn't do close interviews at the FBI when he forgot the safe zone or boundary and a prisoner/suspect type attacked him Catbird, are you referring to "Execution"?" A prisoner attacked Huang and Stabler just mintutes before he was to be executed. They were trying to find out about another murder he had commited. By attacking them, the police beat him into submission, rendering him braindead/damaged, and unable to be executed, which was the man's plan. I don't recall anything about Huang not being able to do close interviews after that. I'll add what bits I know about the SVU characters: ALEXANDRA "ALEX" CABOT: Has a mother. Likes to go jogging early in the morning.  CASEY NOVAK: Likes kickboxing. Can't remember anything else about her at the time. ;D GEORGE HUANG: Works for the FBI as a forensic psychiatrist. Most likey fluent in both Mandarin and Cantonese. Active in an organization that watches abuse against citizens in China. ( I forget the name, mentioned in "Tortured".) No clue about his upbringing, education, or family. ELLIOT STABLER: Was in the Marines. Married young. Has 4 kids. Currently seperated froim his wife. Recently admitted to being abused by his father. Irish Catholic. OLIVIA BENSON: Product of rape. Father unknown. Was close to her mother. Mother died from a fall down some stairs. Had a pregnancy scare in college. Speaks 3/4 languages, can Miranda-ize in 3/4 others. ODAFIN "FIN" TUTUOLA: Worked in Narcotics. Transferred to SVU to replace Jeffries. More later...  |
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Post by culturevulture73 on Oct 19, 2005 21:41:42 GMT -5
A few corrections and additions:
Greavey wasn't an alcoholic, it was Cragen. He and Ceretta are reasonably well adjusted ;-)
Munch's father being a suicide? Cooked up for SVU. If you watch Homicide (and if you haven't, you should!), one of the detectives commits suicide and Munch never brings up his father or even mentions his father is dead. Also, Munch grew up and went to high school in Baltimore, but it's NYC in SVU. I always wondered if he was making it up ;-)
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Post by janetcatbird on Oct 19, 2005 22:14:47 GMT -5
OK, it's been a while since I saw any episodes with Greevy, guess I got confused that he and Cragen used to be partners. (Maybe Greevy was the one who supported Cragen through AA.)
Considering I was only about 7-8 at the time, no I haven't seen Homicide episodes so I can't contribute alot for John Munch--but there is a really cool website I found which I will link to later. I know that the actor Richard Belzer's father committed suicide as well, but I don't think the circumstances were like those described in "Painless".
As to Huang, I was thinking of a chat he had with Olivia during an episode when she was being stalked (someone murdered three cases she had worked on and came after her through AivilO productions), and she asked something about his time at the FBI. The sound on my TV was awful, I caught something about "I underestimated the time it takes to kill someone. Kind of scary", something that sounded like that.
Oh yeah, Jack McCoy! Abusive father (possibly alcoholic), "sometimes Mom had to lock herself in the basement". Dad was a beat cop, very demanding of his son--made Jack go to law school instead of following him as a police officer. At least 1 sibling (he mentioned his nephew playing video games in one episode). Married/divorced once, one daughter. Affairs with three of his assistants before Claire Kincaid. Very disillusioned/angry with the Catholic church, though whether it's a build-up of disappointments or one thing in particular I can't remember. Usually kind of snotty and eager to take down the church and priests, prompting Serena to ask "What did those nuns do to you?" (Although, to be fair, he has eased off in some situations, like the priest who was truly concerned about whether breaking the confessional privilege to put a cold-blooded murderer in jail would be worth losing the collar.)
--Catbird
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Post by blucougar57 on Oct 20, 2005 0:09:41 GMT -5
Eames might not be 'damaged' to the extent that Goren is on CI, but she has a few demons of her own -
her mother has had a stroke (don't know whether she is still alive); her father 'double-dipped' and had to pay back a lot of money; I honestly believe that her emotional reaction to the case in The Third Horseman could indicate that she has actually had an abortion at some point (though, of course, that is pure speculation).
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Post by Summerfield on Oct 20, 2005 11:00:43 GMT -5
Phil Ceretta was married and his wife's name was Elaine and they had five children, one daughter was named Sandy. Greevey's wife was Marie who after his death went back to college, obtained a law degree and eventually became a judge. I made the last part up. The actress who played Marie appeared in later episodes as a judge. Jack McCoy is an expert dart player (Aftershock) But you have a point about the males with less than pleasant family backgrounds. I suppose those back stories make for better drama. |
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Post by maherjunkie on Oct 22, 2005 10:12:51 GMT -5
Do we ever hear about the McCoy daughter? I got the feeling Jack discovered he had her later, guess I'm wrong...
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Post by janetcatbird on Oct 22, 2005 14:59:05 GMT -5
Well, in one of the Homicide cross-overs was the first I heard of Jack's daughter. He described a time at the beach when he was "on vacation with my family". From the events described his daughter was probably a teenager at the time--presumably a good while before the episode-- which doesn't make sense to me cause I would have thought the wife left him after a short marriage, but whatever.
On the mothership, Serena was in a discussion with Jack and Branch and made the comment "I'm the only one without kids in this room..." If you look on Jack's desk (the one at the window, not facing the doorway) you can see a black-and-white picture of a young dark-haired girl. I have not heard a name or even a specific mention of her on L&O. Though I think it would be the height of "Gotcha!" to have his daughter turn out to be the age of all his assistants, only to drop by one day unexpectedly pregnant-to-there and shock him into reality. But that's just me...
--Catbird
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amnesic
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 66
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Post by amnesic on Oct 31, 2005 5:20:29 GMT -5
is this not a pattern to the majority of tv and movies? damaged male works on screen, damaged woman does not. i don't know whether it is the female viewer that creates this problem. we'll watch a self-destructive man on screen and feel sympathy for them (do we want to fix them??), but if it is woman then we have no sympathy, we see them as manipulative. or is it something else?
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Post by Cassie on Oct 31, 2005 5:38:14 GMT -5
Well said Amnesic, I think from the beginning of time, woman in their relationship with men, have always wanted to change or fix their men. As for woman beign victims. Sometimes I think we have been raised to be the good little girls, and not say a word or complain. As for woman being victims portrayed on TV. We had this discussion at work, awhile back, and decided that MTV did not help either gender on molding the young minds into how we should treat and respect each other. and as the years go by. a womans story could be seen on The Lifetime Channel aka The Womans/Victims Network.
I don't like seeing anyone being a victim or portrayed as a victim. Male or Felmale. However, I do like the insight that men have their struggles to. I was raised to think that all men have it under control and nothing bothers then me. That is far from the truth. they also need to be heard. I believer their is a greater fear on their part to speak up in our society.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 10, 2005 2:58:11 GMT -5
I dont like how Stabler has become a 'losse cannon' either, its not really believeable to me that he would be allowed to get away with that level of brutality & thus SVU loses some of its realisim as a result. As afr as Bobby is concerned, i dont thinl that i would really call him 'damaged'. I think that his experiences with his mother's illness as a child (i mean he was only 7 when she began devloping symptoms, the poor guy) molded him into the person he is today, but it is clear that whoever helped his mother raise him did an excellent job of it. Also while we're on the subject of 'damaged males' In one LOCI ep, Deakins was wearing a patch, what happened??? i had to work that night & missed whatever happened to him, could someone fill me in??? |
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Post by E. McCoy on Nov 10, 2005 7:54:58 GMT -5
McCoy's daughters name is Kim I think. It is mentioned in the Law and Order Comanion book.
Deakins had bells palsy I think.
As far as all the males and females on Law and Order they do all seem to have a good bit of damage in one way or another. Seems most of it stems from being Catholic...j/k. But I could see how it could come from that, I myself am Catholic and the guilt your parents can lay on you is murder.
Though I think all their "damage" is to show that they didn't go bad like the perps they bust every week. Instead they chose to become cops and fight crime instead. I'll have a bit more on this later...
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