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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 0:10:06 GMT -5
It was extremely touching how Frank spat on all of Bobby's good gifts (the coat, and so on).
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Post by darmok on Dec 7, 2007 0:10:55 GMT -5
They've never said on the show that Goren was abused by his father, but I think it was Stepahnie Sengupta that confirmed that backstory. I think this is the first hint of that on the show. At the end when he's with Frank, Frank says everyone forgets, "I was the one." And Bobby says they both caught a raw deal. I think they're talking about abuse. Also. twice in that scene, Bobby gets angry and Frank cowers; he's acting like he's been abused.
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Post by Cassie on Dec 7, 2007 0:14:37 GMT -5
Ok, before I really head to bed (g), I gotta hit one point. There's no evidence that Bobby is Brady's biological son. In truth, I don't think Bobby had a "real" father of any kind. Patcat On this point I agree totally. I think when Detective Goren alternates between identifying himself as Goren and Brady while under the influence of truth drugs, it is intended to convey the idea that his paternity is still in doubt, and also that he is no son of either Goren Sr. or Brady in the ways that really matter.Well we will never really know, who Goren's biological father is.... Dr Declan Gage, was considered Goren's mentor, subsitute father, and he fell short too....like most parents do. I still feel Goren has a sense of humor in acknowledging that Brady was/could be his father
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Dec 7, 2007 0:14:47 GMT -5
I have to admit it that I am still numb. WOW! I still have so much to digest. The diamond ring, Rodgers in an evening gown, confirmation of the Ross/Rodgers relationship,the motel comment, the torture, the suspension, the nephew's escape, his brother's drug use, and I could go on. The one thing I will comment on is the ending or lack of one. I realize that this is a story line that the show plans to continue with but it left me with the feeling of "huh...is that it?" But that has been the problem with the show all season long. Really bad endings. nosee
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 0:15:35 GMT -5
They've never said on the show that Goren was abused by his father, but I think it was Stepahnie Sengupta that confirmed that backstory. I think this is the first hint of that on the show. At the end when he's with Frank, Frank says everyone forgets, "I was the one." And Bobby says they both caught a raw deal. I think they're talking about abuse. Also. twice in that scene, Bobby gets angry and Frank cowers; he's acting like he's been abused. Compare that raw deal statement with what Mama Goren said to Bobby about him being the one who caught all the breaks. That had to go down hard.
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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 0:26:06 GMT -5
I was very nervous watching this episode. My heart started pounding during the initial doink-doink! Diablo, I think Donny did make a call to help Bobby after he escaped...he called Frank. Who did nothing. B******.
I, too, was shocked at Goren's choice of alias. But I liked that he made himself a history teacher.
Ross and Rodgers, lol. See? We saw that look in the morgue.
Frank saying why doesn't Bobby take Eames to a motel and get it out of his system....first, interesting that he referred to her as Eames. Did Bobby and Frank spend more time together prior to Frances' death than we think? He knows that's how Bobby refers to her. So maybe Frank *does* see something "unrequited" between them? Children who grow up with mentally ill/abusive/neglectful parents have a keen sense of intuition. They had to learn to read people and situations to survive. I don't know, I really think Frank saw something in Bobby and Alex to make that comment...I don't see it as having a lousy attitude toward women in general.
The end was unsatisfying, to say the least. What was Bobby thinking? Was he realizing the futility of trying to find Donny in Times Square? Was he having a mental/emotional breakdown?
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Post by girlinblack on Dec 7, 2007 0:26:52 GMT -5
I agree with what everyone else has said about the acting. It was excellent. I applaud Vincent, but I think that Katie also did a phenomenal job. I really love watching the two of them together. They complement each other so well. They have an excellent on screen chemistry.
What I really enjoyed about this episode was the sort of update on the relationship status that we got between the two main characters. I finally know what Eames meant in "Smile". In my opinion, she would have done anything for him in this episode. The level of trust, friendship, and all out devotion ran so deep. I appreciated seeing that above all else. Eames didn't leave that phone for one second. Bobby didn't need words, he talked to her through his eyes. When he left, and he didn't turn his back on her either - I thought, 'God, we've come a long way.' How about when Captain Ross had to cut Eames off at one point- to me she was REALLY getting into her defense... if you know what I mean. Then, there was the ring... in my mind, I'm going to pretend that he wanted it for a small blond haired detective.
My favorite line was Frank's little remark that Goren and Eames should get a room. I'm a shipper, completely and totally and that pleased me so much. Yeah - it's crude - it was a cheap shot - he's a jerk - nonetheless - I shamelessly enjoyed it. I hope he makes a return.
Honestly for me, I saw this episode as one that inspired a perfect sort of sweet misery. It made me feel a spectrum of emotions, and ... WANT MORE. I thought it was entertaining, and I was a skeptic upon hearing the premise. I think that it could have gone horribly, and it didn't. I'm impressed with this season, and I hope that we get to see the rest.
Oh, I almost forgot the Ross and Rodgers thing. I support their relationship. I actually think that it is kind of sweet to be honest. I didn't even notice that she was in the elevator until I read reviews because I was too busy analyzing Eames actions.
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 0:31:56 GMT -5
I see Eames and Goren as mutually dependent in some deeper way than, say, Benson and Stabler: or at least, he depends on her. Not necessarily romantic. I think that VDO's acting in particuar makes this perceptible (and I'm not just talking about "FPS" or the anxious bar scene in "Albatross" either). Again, not necessarily romantic.
Somehow my 1.5 hours nap before the next viewing became a :15 power nap *s* ...
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Post by darmok on Dec 7, 2007 1:09:54 GMT -5
Yeah, Goren got very upset after Frank made the Eames comment. He did not take kindly to it at all.
This episode had it's flaws, but it had a lot of good stuff in it too. I liked the confrontation in Ross' office. When he said he was worried about Goren's mental state, he averted his eyes. Goren kept looking straight at Ross when he said "I'm fine. How about you?" Ross didn't like the insubordination.
I thought the prison part ended too abruptly. Personally, I would have liked to see Eames and Ross find Goren.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Dec 7, 2007 1:22:10 GMT -5
I liked the episode very much. I didn't think the ending supported the purpose for the episode, but hey, that's just my take (just a little picky point).
The warden didn't pick on the mentally challenged per say. I think people from the general ward were placed in the mental health ward so that they could be placed in isolation.
My take was the Warden didn't appreciate trouble makers and wanted to show those that "might" be trouble, what would happen to them if they didn't behave. Obviously, it wasn't a deterrent for all of the prisoners, but I'm sure if was effective on a good amount of them.
Love the peas and carrots.
Thought Rodgers looked a bit slutty, but it also suited her personality. I always thought she was a hoot and half.
Ross was a good guy during this episode, and his hands were tied at a certain point. In his own way, he has been trying to help Goren. I just don't think he always knows the right way of doing it. The worst thing you can say to someone who comes from a mentally ill household, is that you think they are mentally ill.
I believe that both brother's were abused. I think Frank is self absorbed as drug users tend to be, do to the nature of the drug use. Also, as an elder child in abusive family, they tend to see themselves as the protector of the younger, even if it wasn't true. In some way, they have to think this to give the abuse they received some meaning.
Frank does love is brother, he's just a screwed up person. Goren does have to protect himself and though it's very hard, he does have to put himself out of harms way to carve a life out for himself. Some people think of this as selfish, but it's not.
I think Frank got to see Donny throughout is life whenever he (Frank) was clean and could offer Donny something of a father figure. Children want family, even though Frank really wasn't a great father, Donny at least knew something about him.
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Post by deathroe on Dec 7, 2007 2:00:40 GMT -5
girlinblack--thanks for pointing out that this one resolved "Smile." I know personally I'm a lot happier about that now.
Anyone catch Rodgers' look when Eames got in the elevator with them?! Priceless.
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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 2:02:09 GMT -5
Upon the second viewing (of which I couldn't watch the scenes in "heaven"), I noticed the make-up people gave Tony Goldwyn very convincing crack teeth.
And it strikes me even more that Frank's motel comment hit Bobby in just the right place, given how Bobby screamed "WHAT?! WHAAAT!!!?!!" in response.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 2:05:02 GMT -5
I could be very wrong about this but I think when Bobby and Frank were in Frank's room Frank said something along the lines of "I was the one" and something else about being the smart one of the family. Maybe I didn't hear it right but it was right before Bobby remarked we both caught a raw deal.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 7, 2007 2:07:04 GMT -5
Upon the second viewing (of which I couldn't watch the scenes in "heaven"), I noticed the make-up people gave Tony Goldwyn very convincing crack teeth. And it strikes me even more that Frank's motel comment hit Bobby in just the right place, given how Bobby screamed "WHAT?! WHAAAT!!!?!!" in response. Is that what is wrong with his teeth?? They were pretty gross.
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Post by nwchimom on Dec 7, 2007 2:09:55 GMT -5
Crack and meth do that....they rot the teeth from the inside, and the corrosive substances meth is made of literally corrode the teeth from the outside. Mix in poor oral hygiene by drug users and cravings for sweets and carbs....and you get that.
And yes, Diablo, I was wondering what Frank meant exactly. We can speculate all day long, but I want to KNOW. Maybe Frank did take the brunt of the abuse as someone stated earlier. Maybe he could've been valedictorian but was forced to get a job to support the family after dad left.
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