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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 11, 2008 20:42:14 GMT -5
Hi Annabelleleigh. Good to see you here! I think I've been so busy obsessing about Goren's behavior, that I haven't really addressed how I feel about Eames. Her reaction towards Goren was that of a dear friend who was truly upset that she had almost killed him. It's not only Goren that she's upset with, it's Ross as well. But as her superior, she can't lash out at Ross, so she vents all of her frustration on her subordinate partner. Goren may not have answered her, but he heard every word she said. I believe he'll tread lightly around her for a while, as he should. "Do you know how many times I've lied for you?" More times than we, the viewer, have been allowed to observe, I bet. Over the eight years of their partnership, I would guess dozens of times. And like the time in Depths, I'm sure he never really noticed. Deathroe, very good point about Goren's sense of mortality kicking in, along with definite signs of depression. Now that I have had time to think, I can understand his apathetic attitude about Copa'a attack. He's going through the motions, a clear sign of the numbness that accompanies depression. And being older, he has more fear. That "Superman Complex" we've talked about Goren displaying in prior seasons is gone. He knows his limits now. So my hero is gone, and in his place is just a regular guy trying to make it in a tough world, basically alone. My heart goes out to him & I still care. But I miss that hero! He's still my hero, more so now than ever, because he's so human. We saw flaws before, but we never saw real fear in him, or the hopelessness he seems prone to these days, so he seemed superhuman. And no one is, so when you get down to it, you see the flawed human beneath the "superhuman" exterior that they present. I've seen him all along as the guy who pretends to have it all together but inside, he's a tangled mess. I've seen that in him for a long time, but we didn't get it like we do now. There were just bits and pieces. Now, we see that human heart that's been so bruised, and the defenses he's put up to try and keep it safe. Sometimes, as with the self-deceptive avoidance, to his own detriment. In this way, Alex had a point. He does self-inflict some things. Not all, though. Many of his worst wounds were made long before he was old enough to know how to handle them. He needed the kick in the pants, I'll grant that. At least partially. But then he needs a hug, darn it! Oh, and I've thought about the Tates thing and I just can't come to Alex being upset with him over that because, as I see it, she did have a choice. She could have told him she wouldn't help, that she didn't want to be in the middle. The onus is on her for her part in it. I realize it would have been hard to say no, but sometimes, for your own sake, you have to. So if she helped him and now she regrets it, that's on her. It's not his fault.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 11, 2008 20:57:07 GMT -5
But I'm thinking this may be a good thing -- both for Bobby and his admirers. I think you might be right. At the very least, this representation seems honest. To me the question of whether this fits the show right now is best answered like this: ask yourself if there is ANYTHING on tv right now as honest as what Erbe and D'Onofrio have been doing. It might make me heartsick, but it is nothing short of wonderful.On a side note of little consequence, I'm pretty sure the "I left two messages" clip in the preview is a different one than they actually used ... The delivery is completely different. Death "Fighting the Tempation to Cut and Youtube That Scene, You Know The One I Mean" Roe Right on, Deathroe! It's real and it's true, and I'm one of those that actually likes the changes the show has been through. Sure, sometimes I miss the old days, but like someone said long ago, you can't play 41 forever. People grow and they change. Things happen in their lives that affect them. I like the fact that we are seeing those effects. It feels more real to me this way. I like how VDO put it in the interview about "Endgame" when he said these are the moments you remember. It really has given the actors a chance to shine, and not just Katie and Vincent. Chris Noth has had some amazing scenes, too, and I've grown to absolutely love Ross because of Eric Bogosian's brilliant delivery of this character.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 11, 2008 20:58:01 GMT -5
No one has commented yet on this Board about Goren's lack of interest in the strip club dancers, have they? I noticed it immediately, and I found it odd. Not that I expected him to ogle them. Goren respects women & doesn't approve of that behavior. But he didn't even sneak a quick look or glance in their direction and then look away. Just total disinterest. I'm a straight woman, and I would have been compelled to look, simply out of curiosity. Stoat is a seasoned cop too, and he looked plenty of times! If this is due to the apathy associated with depression, than he is really suffering, isn't he? There was one woman who had her top off in the hallway. He didn't even sneak a peek at that.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 11, 2008 21:06:47 GMT -5
No one has commented yet on this Board about Goren's lack of interest in the strip club dancers, have they? I noticed it immediately, and I found it odd. Not that I expected him to ogle them. Goren respects women & doesn't approve of that behavior. But he didn't even sneak a quick look or glance in their direction and then look away. Just total disinterest. I'm a straight woman, and I would have been compelled to look, simply out of curiosity. Stoat is a seasoned cop too, and he looked plenty of times! If this is due to the apathy associated with depression, than he is really suffering, isn't he? There was one woman who had her top off in the hallway. He didn't even sneak a peek at that. I noticed that, too, and to me he looked wildly uncomfortable. It put me in mind of the man he always was, who didn't like it when women were demeaned, or demeaned themselves. Remember how he was with Sandi the stripper in "Shandeh"? He had absolutely zero respect for her. But then in "Sex Club", the Honey's got at least sideways glances. So that brings up something interesting. . .does he differentiate between nude pictures and dancing naked? Is there something seedier about the strip club that doesn't appeal to him? Or maybe his father had a weakness for those types of places and that's what bothers him about it? We know Goren Sr. was quite the ladies man and it seems as though he wasn't very discriminating about what kind of women they were. Think Bobby telling Frankie in "Legion" that when his father came home at night he could "smell them on him". I took that to mean more than just smelling a strange perfume.
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 11, 2008 21:28:40 GMT -5
I think he is above "sneeking a peek."
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Post by deathroe on Jun 11, 2008 22:12:59 GMT -5
The strip club sequence and, really, the whole episode raises an interesting point: Goren does have boundaries, still, even if these are left to the individual viewer's interpretation.
There is no explanation for Eames' behavior in any of the last 2-3 episodes other than caring about Goren. She would not otherwise be subjecting herself to what she is. I'm still stuck on her explanation of Goren's behavior in "Untethered": "all he was thinking was that he had to save Donny ... (and then in "Purgatory") "he had his reasons." These seem to me to be very sympathetic depictions of Goren's behaviors; I wonder if this is what she still thinks.
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Post by Summerfield on Jun 11, 2008 22:24:01 GMT -5
I didn't see it as a lack of interest. I saw it as professionalism.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 11, 2008 23:21:15 GMT -5
I didn't see it as a lack of interest. I saw it as professionalism. It's professionalism, it's respect for women, it's a strong desire to be something totally different from his father. Goren has created his own marvelous code of ethics. (how did he do that with no father figure and a totally dysfunctional upbringing?) From what I've seen (not every episode yet) he can be amusingly bashful (Zoonotic, where he stands between Eames and the exhibitionist). He is a gentleman - more so now than in the first few seasons. (shown, for example, in Brother's Keeper with his comment to Ross "we can all read" - he and Eames have become so in sync in their disrespect for alternative lifestyles there is no need to vocalize what's written on Eames monitor and regard Ross' reaction as bordering on voyeurism) He has risen above the scuzz he has been thrust undercover with and it's a wonder that didn't blow his cover.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jun 11, 2008 23:44:34 GMT -5
If this is due to the apathy associated with depression, than he is really suffering, isn't he? There was one woman who had her top off in the hallway. He didn't even sneak a peek at that. Men are visual. It is normal for them to look. Goren's lack of blatant ogling could be due to his keeping it low key. Perhaps he ogled plenty when he first went into the club. Who knows..... He seems to have an attraction for the opposite of the strippers. Looking back at other episodes you see him attracted to the educated, classier types. Not that that would stop him from appreciating a scantily attired woman. I also believe that comment to Frankie about being able to smell other women on his father, he was not referring to their perfume. Stoats, on the other hand, was appreciating the scenery and when speaking to young women waiting to get in the club he used "sweetie" or something similar. Stoats was a lot looser and at ease around them. I think Goren looks but not with the same intensity/blatant or predatory style.
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 11, 2008 23:50:12 GMT -5
I think Goren looks but not with the same intensity/blatant or predatory style. Ooo, that's good, diablodeblanco!
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Post by deathroe on Jun 12, 2008 0:17:21 GMT -5
You know, I keep thinking about the whole "straw that broke the camel's back" argument as far as Eames is concerned. I could see it. In this sense, she isn't castigating him simply for that one time but for more than a season of risky behavior. And again, it's a very primal (Goren's word in "F.P.S.") expression of emotion. "You could have died!" That's something you say to a child, a best friend, or a life partner. ** I will stop obsessing about this soon and sleep, really!!
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 12, 2008 5:54:59 GMT -5
Stoats, on the other hand, was appreciating the scenery and when speaking to young women waiting to get in the club he used "sweetie" or something similar. Stoats was a lot looser and at ease around them. I think Goren looks but not with the same intensity/blatant or predatory style. As Robert said, he is nothing like Stoats. Thank God! I watched Purgatory again last night and noticed Stoats using the word "rat" at least twice. Couple that with Copa calling Robert a rat, and I am beginning to believe these guys are involved in putting the rat in Goren's drawer and ARE working in concert with the Chief of D's to frighten, discredit, harm, and at the very least get rid of Goren. It is too coincidental that the 10-13 benefit for Copa and Stoats looking for Goren happen at the same time...and in Goren's neighborhood bar. Stoats is often trying to tempt Robert into the position to do something that would "taint" him - ie snort coke, ignore the fact they are working for a man on NYPD's "radar", beat up a man who owes Testarossa money, and lie about why Robert had a gun to the drug dealer's head. Shades of "Serpico" here...and very scary for Robert. I am very worried for him. He has put away a lot of cops and even a ruthless judge ... who have a lot of friends. I know even though Eames is angry with him, she will always have his back, and I believe Ross will do what he can to protect him. But even with their help and Robert's own skepticism, brilliance, and professionalism, I fear he may be physically hurt in a future episode. God forbid.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jun 12, 2008 6:03:48 GMT -5
So my hero is gone, and in his place is just a regular guy trying to make it in a tough world, basically alone. My heart goes out to him & I still care. But I miss that hero! He's still my hero, more so now than ever, because he's so human. We saw flaws before, but we never saw real fear in him, or the hopelessness he seems prone to these days, so he seemed superhuman. And no one is, so when you get down to it, you see the flawed human beneath the "superhuman" exterior that they present. I've seen him all along as the guy who pretends to have it all together but inside, he's a tangled mess. I've seen that in him for a long time, but we didn't get it like we do now. There were just bits and pieces. Now, we see that human heart that's been so bruised, and the defenses he's put up to try and keep it safe. Sometimes, as with the self-deceptive avoidance, to his own detriment. In this way, Alex had a point. He does self-inflict some things. Not all, though. Many of his worst wounds were made long before, he was old enough to know how to handle them. He needed the kick in the pants, I'll grant that. At least partially. But then he needs a hug, darn it! Word, outerbankschick. And I volunteer to give him that hug!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 12, 2008 7:15:04 GMT -5
I'm also touched by what Donna wrote: But I'm thinking this may be a good thing -- both for Bobby and his admirers. And that's what I'm cogitating on now, as well as Patcat's meaty question: "Are all of Goren's wounds self-inflicted?" Some great observations here by all -- back to catching up with them. AL I see your point about the benefits of us, the fans, witnessing an honest portrayal of Goren as a good, ethical man in a corrupt environment. The old Goren wasn't true to life, we all know that. I don't remember exactly what interview (The View?) VDO said that he was friends with Goren, but most people couldn't be. Also that Goren would has his ass kicked by the other cops if he actually existed. Not in those words, but that was the idea in the interview. If Susan's hunch is right, it would follow that next he will be physically hurt. That would be an honest result of being a rat. I pray the writers don't go that far. My stomach couldn't take it.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 12, 2008 7:41:11 GMT -5
This little blog review was posted at the USA message board. I thought it fit here since it discusses "Purgatory." It is upbeat & positive (for a change) ;D TV Munchies: Law and Order: Criminal IntentNew Episode June 9, 2008 Posted by Judy Asman in Food, Marketing, Wellness. Season 7 of Dick Wolf’s Law and Order: Criminal Intent resumes with Detective Robert Goren (Vincent D’Onofrio) hunched over a semi-pale draft beer—probably domestic—in a New York pub.
Disturbing and complex—appropriately on normal evenings but hard to swallow on a night of a challenging Laker game—the episode follows Goren as he maneuvers through a puzzle involving a dirty narcotics officer (also suspended) and possibly the unethical cop who lost his retirement thanks to Goren pointing out his crappy cop-ping in Amends.
Tonight’s TV munchies—Trader Joe’s Almond in the Coconut (a fancy way of saying “Almond Joy”)—sweetened the emotions a bit but quickly faded into salivating anxiety for next week’s episode after a dead rat appeared in Goren’s desk drawer after he was reinstated.
This is not an episode not for the faint-hearted—or at least for the hardcore Goren fan. His undercover stint may have helped him get his badge back, and a handshake by the Chief of Ds, but now it appears the brilliant Goren will need to look over his shoulder at every turn—all the while protecting his partner Eames’ by not involving her in his bad blood with NYPD meansters.
Okay, no need to panic just yet. There are some things working in Goren’s favor. He’s obviously got “friends” in Major Case, as twice he’s had help on his undercover schemes. He’s also got his track record. Whether the Chief likes it or not, Goren’s a closer.
In a recent Entertainment Weekly interview, D’Onofrio tells a reporter Goren won’t need psychiatric help in the upcoming season, saying Goren seems “perfectly normal” to him.
I couldnt’ agree more. I’m just waiting for the rest of the characters to realize he’s the only sane one. Okay, except for Eames. And Logan. And Wheeler. Or Falacci. Or whomever will be Logan’s partner this season.judythefoodie.com/
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