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Post by annabelleleigh on Aug 26, 2008 20:28:56 GMT -5
Well of course they are my opinions. As your posts are your opinions. Well of course Susan1212. As DiabloD remarked earlier, how dull this board would be if we all agreed on everything. ;-) AL
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 26, 2008 20:31:52 GMT -5
LOL about the "double-dipping". Incidentally, Bobby could also have pointed out to Ross that Brady being his father doesn't make him a killer anymore than being Goren, Sr.'s son would make him an alcoholic, pretentious womanizer. . .among other things. Deathroe, I love your literary examples. Keep 'em coming.
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Post by cadesdad on Aug 26, 2008 20:56:22 GMT -5
Personally, I think Erbe always looks gorgeous! Don't tell my wife. Of course, she had a crush on VDO in the early seasons.
I think I relate to Goren because he's put on weight, he's gray, and we're close to the same age. I was struck by something Declan told him: "You're younger than you know." This season, Goren has carried himself like an old man--shuffling, distracted, almost clumsy, and the gray hair and beard and the disheveled wardrobe suggest a man aged by his experiences and depressed by where life has deposited him. I think Gage is trying to restore the younger Goren (perhaps the Goren of the first three or so seasons)--quick on his feet both physically and, more importantly, intellectually--the brilliant profiler who's the smartest guy in the room. Did you notice how Declan referred to Goren's genius twice--in his interviews with both Ross and Goren. It's as if Declan wants people to be proud of his protege and to remind Bobby that he's so capable of so much more than he realizes.
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 26, 2008 21:04:46 GMT -5
You're right, cadesdad. Declan, in his own way, seems to be trying to bolster Bobby's confidence and remind him of who he is. He's validating him as a person. It's a shame all those wonderful things had to come from the guy who arranged for Bobby's brother to be murdered. That's where the Shakespearean tragedy comes in. There are happy moments in the CI world now and then, but not many happy endings.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 26, 2008 22:31:07 GMT -5
Susan1212--you are entitled to your opinions on this board. I and I believe others here believe that wholeheartedly. No one should have to stifle their feelings, or feel that their opinion is of lesser value than others. The two years I have been here I and others have critiqued the writing/the plot or lack of/the talent/etc.. We have even critqued the actors for their appearances from time to time. If you take offense at these opinions that is your right.....just as it is the right of the other poster/posters to write them. I encourage you to continue to voice your opinions and post your comments. I value you as a member of this board. I also value all the other members in the same way.......except for the spammer.
I've discovered over time that when you participate in a forum such as this it helps to have a thick skin and not take anything as gospel. Sometimes it is merely a matter of not being able to "see" what the other poster is trying to say. Conveying emotions using a keyboard is difficult at times.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 26, 2008 22:43:21 GMT -5
Although, mind you, if Mr. D'Onofrio had turned up at my apartment on a cold and rainy night during his single days.... Patcat For Pete's sake, Patcat, don't stop there!!! LOL
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Post by deathroe on Aug 26, 2008 22:59:44 GMT -5
For my money (cadesdad), the best shots of VDO were in the scene at the end where you got to see his face full-on. Yes, he is very handsome, but his face also has this earthiness, openness, almost an Italian peasant-stock quality to it that I find really engaging. Very fitting for a scene where Goren's humanity is in full view, and the range of emotion was spectacular. He kind of reminds me of my Dad. Don't say anything. I think part of the reason KE and Hendrix in particular looked so good was light and color choices: the lavender in particular and the white for KE ,and the way we got to see Hendrix/Rodgers' blue eyes. It was a very good-looking episode. The colors haunt me: Gwen's shiny blue scarf and the red and yellow flowers. It was all pretty neat.
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Post by outerbankschick on Aug 26, 2008 23:02:51 GMT -5
One more. . .then bed! Gwen. . .she just haunted me. I had so hoped that by taking her away, and by getting rid of that lotion, Nicole really had managed to keep her safe from the cancer risk. It was sad to realize that it hadn't done any good. One more murder to lay at Evan Chapel's feet.
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Post by deathroe on Aug 26, 2008 23:14:46 GMT -5
Gwen was indeed very haunting. I thought how they tied things up with "Grow" was very convincing (even though they obviously couldn't re-explain everything about the case). Maybe Gwen will be okay. Interesting that Goren's interpretation of Nicole's treatment of Gwen was kinder than the reality. In "Grow," he says Nicole "did the right thing" by leaving Gwen in AZ. But here Nicole is, using Gwen as a pawn in her game with Bobby (was it Gage? was it Nicole? does it matter? Lots more articulation to be done in that direction.) I think that when Goren puts good motives on Nicole, they are more about what his motives would be. In ways. Seemingly, he equates his love for Donny with Gwen's love for Nicole. But I'd argue that the former is redemptive, whereas the latter is twisted. Bed for me too! This is all way too fascinating *s* ...
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 26, 2008 23:52:55 GMT -5
......I don't think it's affected his character negatively. But that's solely my opinion. I also think that some of the way he looks is clearly done to show how far into depression Bobby has sunk. He's wearing his jeans on his hips, to maximize how much of his belly is out of them. The suit jackets seem to fit, but barely. A lot of his appearance has to do with Bobby's state of mind, his emotional health. He doesn't walk tall anymore. He sort of shuffles along, shoulders rounded, head low. He's been in an emotional juggernaut and floundering around, trying to find his way out. IMO, VDO has played this out perfectly. Well spoken OBC. It all works to show a Goren who has been hit hard emotionally and financially and finds comfort in food. IMHO, the discussion of VDO's weight is irrelevant if his portrayal of Robert Goren works. And to that I say a resounding *yes*. I thought we were discussing Criminal Intent, not VDO. I have a huge respect for him and will discuss him with respect. (however I will poke fun at Robert Goren!) Also IMHO, if you want to see a slim Goren, watch the first few seasons. The character will never be the same again after the last two years. How he pulls out of this remains to be seen. I put my hopes in the hands of the new team - and it's scaring me!
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Post by random on Aug 27, 2008 0:22:54 GMT -5
I found trying to watch Goren and Eames together exhausting in this episode. At the beginning, they are solid. When you watch their body language in the elevator in the first few minutes of the episode, they are clearly united. As the episode progresses, Goren grows angry because Eames is investigating him, sort of parallel to the way he kept her in the dark in Purgatory. By the end, as they go into the aria, Goren knows it's Declan. Eames knows Goren knows or she probably wouldn't have left the room, since they generally tag team people if they just want more info. Clearly, they have had that pre-game strategy session that we sometimes get to see, but other times is just implicit. This seems to indicate that they are on pretty solid ground. Eames is clear in talking to Gage that she doesn't have any ill feelings toward Goren, but half of what they say to suspects is fabrication. That ambiguity has always been one of the charms of the show for me. I guess I also wasn't sure whether Goren had gotten over Eames' investigation of him.
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 27, 2008 0:35:28 GMT -5
The scene where she tells him they’re going for a walk, after he’s been “roughing up” Rodgers in the morgue, is classic. He doesn’t follow her so much, I don’t think, because she’s got him whipped as because he wants to. For some reason that I can’t put my finger on, or quite, restoring his relationship with Eames seems intimately bound up with Bobby’s “choosing life,” with his choosing or being forced to choose, as I think we all do, between being stuck in the Nicole!world, or in Gage’s dream world of puzzles, killers, and being in the real world. Beautifully put, as always deathroe, and if I may add, she provided him a dignified exit from the situation, which everyone accepted.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 27, 2008 0:42:29 GMT -5
I think if we go back through the threads we find discussion of not only LOCI but the actors and other people associated with the show. We have made comments and observations on their worlds outside of LOCI. The other projects they have been involved with, their additions to their families, the ups and downs of their marriages, hairstyles and assorted other things have been kicked around on these boards. Some of it relevant to the show, some not. I don't believe it comes down to whether you respect the people involved with LOCI. It's posters observing and giving their thoughts and opinions on this board. My opinion is that it is a matter of watching the people involved in what is a very intriguing TV show. One that has a solid fan base. We're all fans here....of the show, the actors, the behind the camera crew.
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 27, 2008 0:57:58 GMT -5
When she asks Gage, wouldn’t I have to have suffered some big trauma to do what you’re pretending I did (kill Frank and Nicole)?—the characterization is nothing short of brilliant. We know she has. We’ve seen it. But she’s clearly also dealt with or is dealing with it. She doesn't want to wallow, or she wants to keep that part of her private. It's just--beautiful. Gah. She was so beautifully calm in that scene. I love how she was leaning against the wall, typically Goren's position (and Goren had positioned himself in the interviewee's seat, but I digress). She acknowledges her anger (shocking that Eames has a verbal admission of her feelings - other than Purgatory) as she's looking at Goren. Is this to break the eye contact with Gage? send a message to Goren that they're not so different? send a message to Goren that she can admit it and deal with it? "but not at my partner"... that she has forgiven him for all the things she listed in Purgatory? Hmmmm.
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Post by quietfireca on Aug 27, 2008 1:11:25 GMT -5
....... the scene where she tells Ross and Gage that she doesn't have to listen to them dissect her relationship with Goren are such gestures of strength. In contrast to the confessional world that she works in, Eames' world is deliberately private: she is effectively telling the men that her relationship with Goren is NOTFB, ..... Now I like your interpretation better than my initial interpretation. In yours she is deliberately removing herself. My first impression was that she was on the run from the next thing Gage might say which might be more than she could deal with considering her feelings toward Gage. Whichever, she was certainly not going to stick around and listen to Gage disect her relationships with anyone.
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