|
|
Post by Techguy on Dec 12, 2009 20:42:06 GMT -5
Patcat gave me this idea on the "Shandeh" EOTW thread, when she asks about themes in CI. I've always felt that the contextual linchpin of CI has been how Goren is the anti-thesis of the perps he pursues and confronts, those selfish individuals who care so much more about themselves than other people that they commit murder. From Trudy Palmeranski in "Poison" through Keith Ramsey in "Baggage" and Mark Farrell in "Conscience," CI has been populated by the uber selfish called out and brought down by Robert Goren.
What are your thoughts about this theme? What else do you think CI has been about?
|
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 13, 2009 10:55:43 GMT -5
What else do you think CI has been about? Things are not as they are seen. Like in the episode "But Not Forgotten" the character Isobel Carnicki, set up her 2nd husband to take the fall for some murders, cause she knew he was responsible for her 1st husbands death. What she did was wrong, but as Carver explained. "We can't arrest her for being morally corrupt" They weren't' his exact words...... but sometimes the real criminal gets away. Same thing happened in "Magnificat" Doreen Whitlock, did the crime, but her husband, played a bigger part in causing it |
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Dec 13, 2009 11:44:03 GMT -5
In "No Exit" I actually felt more anger towards Darrell Hammond than the other character, even though I know he made the bigger mistake.
|
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 14, 2009 12:58:59 GMT -5
I can't remember where I came across this idea, but it's the idea that murder can be a horribly egomaniacal act, particularly if it's not done to protect someone or because of a mental illness. The idea that a murderer takes away a life just to further their own ends. Ursula Sussman would be a prime example, I think.
Patcat
|
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 15, 2009 7:12:01 GMT -5
In many episodes there is a theme that not all murderers are horribly evil or coldly selfish, but are driven to murder as a desperate act by tragic pasts and emotional issues. Some examples would be Amy Ryan in "Suite Sorrow," the eye doctor in "See Me," and Mark Linn-Baker in "Probability." Also the wealthy transvestite in "Maledictus" and the young boy in "A Murderer Among Us." Just to name a few.
|
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 16, 2009 9:23:40 GMT -5
How does LOCI portray religion? Organized religion often seems to be a theme in LOCI, and I think it's particularly a them Rene Balcer is interested in. I sense that Mr. Balcer may be a lapsed Catholic--perhaps someone with more knowledge of Mr. Balcer could address that--and that may have something to do with this.
Patcat
|
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 16, 2009 14:40:44 GMT -5
I always thought it was because Dick Wolf was catholic.
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard that Rene Balcer was buddist
|
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 16, 2009 16:01:44 GMT -5
Dick Wolf was certainly raised Catholic. I assumed Mr. Balcer was also raised Catholic since he's French Canadian, but I could be wrong.
Patcat
|
|
|
|
Post by anchoress on Dec 24, 2009 0:02:56 GMT -5
Hi: Longtime lurker, infrequent poster.
This is a question I've asked myself many times over the year I've loved CI (before that I literally hated it; I'd have rather watched reruns of The Antiques Roadshow than CI epis).
I have this to say:
First, I don't know if they're just in Canada, but in the past year the cast did some short CI promos where the actors would talk about being MC detectives. D'Onofrio's was something like, "Being a detective, you get to see the darker side of human nature. But the most interesting thing of all is what some guys will do for love."
Second, there was that episode about the epileptic girl whose boyfriend leveraged her siezure-induced visions into major dough from fortune-telling addicts. At the end of the epi, Goren, Eames and either Deakins or I think Carver were all walking along, and they were talking about him - Goren had intuited that the guy had done what he'd done (murdered a young man, and sheltered his g/f from most of the consequences of their grifting) out of love. Eames said something like, "True love. His only redeeming virtue." Then Eames and Carver or whomever split off, leaving Goren with a kind of wistful, kind of angsty look on his face.
Third, there are the perps. I think a great many of them fall into two categories: They commit their crimes either out of love or in order to keep what they have (sometimes both at the same time). And regarding the perps, if you think about the ones Goren seemed to have the most empathy for, they (IMO) could mostly be described as irretrievably damaged people whose only redeeming virtue was that they did what they did for love. Either to have it or keep it. Even Wallace fit that description on occasion.
To synthesise all those things: I think the wistful look Goren had was because in his darkest moments, he sees himself as irretrievably damaged, and his only redeeming virtue is his ability to love. I have ALWAYS thought (even before the promo spots I saw) that he would have a chance to prove that he'd do anything for love, and I just hoped he'd survive.
|
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Dec 25, 2009 19:09:55 GMT -5
Anchoress, I think you are onto something. Goren does seem to empathize and feel for the perps who commit their crimes out of a strange sense of love or loyalty. What he truly despises is selfishness and greed.
Happy to see you delurking! ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 26, 2009 16:07:03 GMT -5
I think you're definitely on to something, Anchoress. I wonder if Bobby has ever experienced that sort of love being given to him. I think that his treatment of his mother was a the act of great love.
Patcat
|
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 27, 2009 8:29:57 GMT -5
And regarding the perps, if you think about the ones Goren seemed to have the most empathy for, they (IMO) could mostly be described as irretrievably damaged people whose only redeeming virtue was that they did what they did for love. Either to have it or keep it. Even Wallace fit that description on occasion.I like hearing you say that about Nicole. I always felt their was a part of Goren that cared for Nicole, that he had wished things would have turned out differently for her had she had never meet up with Bernard Fremont (Slither ep) Welcome to the Forum  |
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Dec 27, 2009 11:52:48 GMT -5
Was Nicole already too damaged to be saved before she met Bernard? Or, if Bernard had been a good man or she had met a good man (like, say, Bobby Goren), would she have turned out well?
And was Declan Gage the man who saved Robert Goren? The Gage we see is a man who is not the man Bobby knew, but was he a better man who pointed Bobby in the right direction?
Patcat
|
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Dec 27, 2009 12:03:37 GMT -5
I think Bobby had a decent inner compass to begin with, Nicole may have been influenced but it didn't take much.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cassie on Dec 27, 2009 13:00:35 GMT -5
Was Nicole already too damaged to be saved before she met Bernard? Or, if Bernard had been a good man or she had met a good man (like, say, Bobby Goren), would she have turned out well? Patcat I think Goren knew, had Nicole meet up with someone other then Bernard, she would have had a better chance at life. Also since he saw the little girl in her, he still had hope for her |
|
Patrick Roy, 2006 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame
