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Post by Patcat on Dec 16, 2010 10:45:43 GMT -5
Will air at 10am (EST) on USA on December 20. First aired October 26, 2003. Fifth Episode of Season Three. Written by Warren Leight and Rene Balcer. Directed by Alex Zakrzewski. Guest Actors: Anthony Mackie as Carl Hines Glyn Turman as Roy Hines Judd Hirsch as Ben Elkins Michal Sinnott as Katya Jalenak Recurring actor and role: Samantha Buck as G. Lynn Bishop Synopsis: The murder of a young photographer lead Bishop and Goren to a newspaper reporter with much to hide. The first Bishop episode. Ripped from the headlines: Based on the Jayson Blair story. Blair was a young African-American working for the NEW YORK TIMES who was discovered making up and plagiarizing stories. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayson_BlairQuotes: Detective (at the crime scene): “You two don’t take notes?” Bishop: “Uh…” Goren: “We haven’t worked that out yet.” Goren (to Bishop after Eames reveals the cost of ATM withdrawals at strip clubs): “See what you miss not working Vice?” Carver (to Goren): “You working for the defense now?” Carver: “Mr. Elkins, do not play that card with me! Only a racist would turn this into a referendum on affirmative action.” Bishop: “So you know, I did not enjoy that.” Goren: “No? Eames would have.” Queries: How well does this episode deal with race and racism? Does Carl know his father killed Katya? If so, why does he protect him? Does Carl realize he’s done anything wrong? Why did Roy Hines kill Katya? Did he have to kill her? Does Katya get lost in this story? How did Bishop get to Major Case? Does the Bishop/Goren relationship ever get better? Who’s at fault for the problems in this relationship? How does Carver feel about affirmative action? Is Ben Elkins a racist? Comments: Not a great deal of discussion about this episode, which I find surprising. A lot going on in this episode. Discussions of racism, affirmative action, and the introduction of G. Lynn Bishop. (Again, did we ever find out what that G. stood for?) I like the way this episode takes on some big issues without pounding the viewer over the head, and the fine performances of the regular and guest casts. But I’d also like to consider Bishop. I wonder if the character and the actress ever got a chance from the show’s fans. At the same time, Bishop often seems woefully unprepared for the rigors of Major Case. She doesn’t appear to have studied the squad and particularly not to have studied Robert Goren. I wonder if her temporary appointment was a political favor on the behalf of Captain Deakins. Submitted, as always, for your consideration and comments. Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 17, 2010 7:24:30 GMT -5
This is one of my least favorite episodes. It has nothing to do with Bishop. I just thought the entire ending was ridiculous. i don't want to give it away, for those who haven't seen it yet. But for me, the murderer and who his actual target was (and especially why he wanted to murder, was unrealistic).
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Post by Patcat on Dec 17, 2010 8:59:49 GMT -5
SPOILER ALERT: (And, by the way, I always assume that everyone is aware that the EOTW will reveal plots)
I completely understood why Roy would want to kill Carl. The young man had cruelly and callously betrayed everything Roy had taught him and thrown away advantages Roy desperately wanted when he was a young man. What I don't understand is why he felt he had to kill Katya when he discovered her at Carl's apartment, unless Roy was enraged by her assisting Carl or that his son was involved with a white girl.
Patcat
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Dec 17, 2010 15:17:48 GMT -5
I never understood the name of this episode. What's Pravda, anyway?
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Post by maherjunkie on Dec 17, 2010 15:32:25 GMT -5
Russia's newspaper.
I never understood why Judd Hirsch's character was necessarily considered racist; maybe he was just confused or forgetful in the moment.
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Post by maherjunkie on Dec 17, 2010 16:17:27 GMT -5
So he deserves death?
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heikimikey
Silver Shield Investigator
Communication Junkie
Posts: 100
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Post by heikimikey on Dec 17, 2010 16:53:51 GMT -5
Angua: "Pravda" means "Truth". That was always a running gag during the cold war in Germany, ....The Pravda was Moscows No 1 newspaper and they always represented the official opinion of the Kreml. But then again, who could afford to do anything else in those times?
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lola
Rookie
Posts: 43
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Post by lola on Dec 17, 2010 17:40:07 GMT -5
Queries: How well does this episode deal with race and racism? Does Carl know his father killed Katya? If so, why does he protect him? Does Carl realize he’s done anything wrong? Why did Roy Hines kill Katya? Did he have to kill her? Does Katya get lost in this story? How did Bishop get to Major Case? Does the Bishop/Goren relationship ever get better? Who’s at fault for the problems in this relationship? How does Carver feel about affirmative action? Is Ben Elkins a racist? I admit it I didn't remember this episode. I had to watch it on my dvd again and it seemed flat to me. But then there was no G/E dynamics in it. How well does this episode deal with race and racism?I think it decribes it well. It suposed to be all over and we are all equal on paper but in reality it still drags on under surface. It is all about concealment. Mr Elkins is holding back his racist feelings or is even in denial about it. Mr Hines is suppressing his feelings, tries to deny his anger for what happened to him in the past because he's black. Heck, even his son is in denial and will not admit to himself that his actions are wrong. Does Carl know his father killed Katya? If so, why does he protect him?Well, not at first. I'm not quite sure when Carl realises it and confronts his father or maybe his father feels Carl will eventually found out and he tells him first. I think Carl's little gray cells start to click when Bobby tricks him on crime scene with the book from his desk. But I might be wrong. Carl protects him because he doesn't realise it's him who should be dead not Katya. And of course father explains he killed her because she was an obsticle in Carl's bright future and promises to turn a blind eye to his plagiarism. Does Carl realize he’s done anything wrong?No, his blind as a bat. Why did Roy Hines kill Katya? Did he have to kill her?Well, he killed her because she suprised him when she walked in on him entering Carl's apartment. I don't think he had to kill her but she ruined his plan and he acted on an impulse, could't back down. Does Katya get lost in this story?Maybe a bit. Boy, you made me think about this one. Yes, I feel there is a lack of sympathy for her as a victim. Not like other victims in LOCI episodes. How did Bishop get to Major Case?Ahh, nobody mentions it and I hate when women just pop up in Bobby's life. ;D She is fresh from school. No, just joking. But she does give me that kind of feeling. I can't pin down right police department because I have no knowledge about police structure in USA, but I would say ordinary detective in one of the precincts. She was offered a job at MCS because nobody else wanted to work with Bobby. She was eager to go. Does the Bishop/Goren relationship ever get better?Uff, not in this episode. Pshishhh, what look on his face when she proposed her theory on burglary. Immediatly he had to teach her and Carl a lesson ( with a book trick ). The way he was debasing her infront of Alex with '' not working for vice '' thing. Even Alex looked horrified. Jesus, that man is pain in a but without Alex. If I can remember right in next episodes their relationship gets a little better and he doesn't snap at Bishop anymore. In one episode ( can't remember which ) he even suggests to take a car instead of walking ( he noticed her little limp because of new shoes - I think ). Who’s at fault for the problems in this relationship?Both. She seems not well prepared ( like you already observed ) and Mr. Know it all does not tolerate it. He is all jumpy because Alex will be on maternity leave soon. He has adjusted his system to Alex and Alex alone and nobody else is in tune with him as Alex. Is Ben Elkins a racist?YES. If Bobby says so, then it is so. Bobby snaps his fingers, I jump. Really high. lola P.S. PLease forgive any mis-spelling. I'm writting this late at night with my eyes all red.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Dec 17, 2010 20:19:30 GMT -5
Join me, lola. We shall form a religion and make everyone bow down before the superiority of our argument.
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roots2rock
Silver Shield Investigator
Birthdate: September 6 VIRGO!
Posts: 101
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Post by roots2rock on Dec 17, 2010 21:17:54 GMT -5
Does Carl know his father killed Katya? If so, why does he protect him?
I don't think Carl knew his father killed Katya until Goren made him aware of the fact. I remember the look on his face when he found out; he was not faking it. He was genuinely shocked and repulsed at the same time.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 18, 2010 8:11:00 GMT -5
I completely understood why Roy would want to kill Carl. The young man had cruelly and callously betrayed everything Roy had taught him and thrown away advantages Roy desperately wanted when he was a young man. What I don't understand is why he felt he had to kill Katya when he discovered her at Carl's apartment, unless Roy was enraged by her assisting Carl or that his son was involved with a white girl. Patcat Filicide, when it is deliberate and calculated, is extremely. extremely rare. A parent who plots to murder their own child almost never happens in today's society. Especially for the reasons stated. I can understand if Roy disowned his son and refused to have anything to do with him. But murder? No. Maybe it's because I'm a parent that I can't see it.
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Post by Patcat on Dec 18, 2010 9:25:08 GMT -5
I wonder if children kill theit parents more than parents kill their children.
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lola
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Post by lola on Dec 18, 2010 10:03:54 GMT -5
Join me, lola. We shall form a religion and make everyone bow down before the superiority of our argument. Amen. LOL Mybe we should form The Felowship of Francis Goren's engagement ring. Together with few friends we will make a quest to find a woman worthy of it. When she will put the ring on all his problems and sorrow of the past will go away. And he shall be free...
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Post by skittles4me on Dec 18, 2010 15:14:45 GMT -5
Join me, lola. We shall form a religion and make everyone bow down before the superiority of our argument. Amen. LOL Mybe we should form The Felowship of Francis Goren's engagement ring. Together with few friends we will make a quest to find a woman worthy of it. When she will put the ring on all his problems and sorrow of the past will go away. And he shall be free... He already has a worthy woman... EAMES!!! ;D It's been a long time since I have seen this episode and am undecided if I will watch it again on marathon Monday. I found it very disturbing because, as DonnaJo stated, I just can't see Roy plotting to kill his son. I also don't get how he was surprised enough to kill Katya. Lola has a good explanation for that but stilll.... To be honest... I just don't like the Bishop/Goren episodes. To me, watching Bishop is like having dental work- not really painful because I am numb, but not pleasant. I don't know if I am biased because I love Goren and Eames together so much, or if it is her character. I think the writers wanted to make sure that the viewers missed Eames and created an obvious mismatch for Goren to reinforce our appreciation of the Goren/Eames dynamic. As far as the big issues, I do understand how Roy would be so very disappointed in his son. I don't remember Carver's stance, but he doesn't shy away from sharing his opinions (remember his pro-life attitude in "The Third Horseman" ?). Shhhhhh! Don't tell but I accidentally peeked at Santa's list of items ordered from Amazon, and LOCI DVDs seasons 3-4 were on it! (I have 1-2) They wouldn't be for anyone else in my family...they all say I am "obsessed". Maybe after Christmas I will have my own "Bishop episodes mini-marathon" and see if my opinion has changed.
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roots2rock
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Post by roots2rock on Dec 20, 2010 12:04:24 GMT -5
Well! After re-watching the episode just now, I realize Carl did know his father killed Katya. The expression on Carl's face I mentioned earlier was due to his finding out that his father intended to kill him, not Katya. As for why he protects him, I think he believed his story that he was coming to "save" him and he did not want to turn Roy in for murder.
Does Katya get lost in this story?
No, Katya is not lost in the story. Her death is the impetus that fuels Goren's obesssion to make Carl aware of his father's deeds.
Does the Bishop/Goren relationship ever get better?
Yes, their relationship improves along the way. It shows much progress in later episodes. In MAD HOPS where they are seen on the basketball court exchanging banter with the neighborhood locals. Again in FPS, where although Goren has been agonizing over how much he misses Eames, Bishop steps up when he receives information about the baby from Eames. She handles the paperwork while telling Goren to call Eames.
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