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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 11, 2005 21:29:01 GMT -5
she had me misty-eyed when she was on the witness stand, & Bobby was so gracious & noble about the whole thing, what a wonderful show of character from him. Goren & i are a lot alike in the aspect of not caring what *most* people think, but some people's opinions just... matter.
i got the impression that the show starts when they were just partnered together, or parhaps months after. i got the feeling they were still 'getting the feel' of each other from their body language & words to each other, below are examples:
In 'One' Bobby promises the grief-stricken parents of the dead girl they "he'll catch em' " when they are heading upstairs, Alex says, almost scoldingly how is could've made a promise like that, his response was 'well you dont get to do this just for the fun of it' or something like that. Also, when they were at the library where the girlfriend got the maps (i think???)., eames is talking on her cell, walking slowly Goren is talking (i think more to himself then her) out one of his theories & keeps coming back to her & then walking ahead, as if trying to get her to walk faster.
In one of the 'bishop' eps (i think it was stray) when deakins is talking with Eames, who is bringing some papers to Bishop who says in passing to leave them on her desk as she hurries to catch up w/ Bobby. alex mentions that she 'doesnt want to get left in his dust' & she says it like she had once been there.
Of course there is also the famous 'eyeball poking' scene where eames says 'i'll be over there while you're doing that' LOL
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 12, 2005 2:06:17 GMT -5
I felt like I was watching a SVU show... I*never* say SVU is histronic, I say it connects with the viewer on an emotional level, whereas CI connects with the viewer on an intellectual level. CI rarely tries to grab your emotions the way SVU does. And when CI *does* try to grab your emotions, they fail. CI does not, and never will have, the emotions or the heart that SVU does. SVU runs on emotion, and when CI tries to inject emotion into their shows, it's overkill... It continues to seem absolutely incredible to me that anyone could say that Criminal Intent does not connect with the viewer on emotional levels. I like the way willow2tree said it: “I think both SVU and CI are emotional, just in different ways. SVU is in your face emotional, CI is in your gut emotional..”SVU runs on in your face emotions – it's a bit like rural directions... take a left at the black guy, go on past the conspiracy theorist, and you’ll run right into the Major Emotions Squad – trust me, you can’t miss them! But having intense emotions is not the same as having heart. Yeah, I know, Stabler has heart. You can tell, not because he expresses pain or grief or a direct empathetic reflection of what someone else is feeling, but because he’s always enraged and/or frustrated by what the bad guys do. To me, that’s engaging my intellect in the sense that I have to tell myself logically that he’s raging around like that because underneath the rage he’s feeling all those other emotions. But he almost never expresses them directly. Goren, on the other hand, is one of the most emotionally expressive male characters I’ve ever seen on television. That’s a big part of what hooked me on this show. I love the stories, the intellectual puzzles, and the excellent writing. But if the show had all those things, but Stabler was the lead detective, I’d be outta here. Because I don’t want to have to deduce what the detective is feeling underneath all that rage and frustration. I want him to be able to express it. The depth of Goren’s emotions – his compassion, grief, pain, empathy, affection, fear, guilt, pity, loneliness, outrage, contempt, and yes, sometimes frustration and rage – are expressed directly through his expressions, voice and body language. He gives us the full range of human emotions, except in those rare instances when he shows us nothing at all about what’s going on inside (as in Want, when he hears that the guy has been killed), or when he’s misleading a suspect (as in One, when he seems to see something disturbing in the autopsy report, or in Blink, where he seems to be so anxious about heights). It’s true that neither he nor Eames tend to ‘shout’ their emotions. But upwards of 95% of the people I know of who love Criminal Intent talk/write about the show in terms of it’s emotional content. Of well over 50 people I can think of off-hand that I’ve heard from on the subject, I’ve only known 2 or 3 who connected with Criminal Intent almost exclusively on an intellectual level, rather than on an emotional ‘gut’ level. So while Criminal Intent doesn’t grab *your* emotions, or the emotions of a couple of other people, it *does* grab the emotions of many viewers, who perceive it as having plenty of emotion and heart. I’m not trying to get you to change your opinion. Only expressing my own opinion that your statements about Criminal Intent connecting only on intellectual levels, not on emotional levels, are not objective statements of fact, the way you make them sound. They are statements of how you react to Criminal Intent, not statements about what degree of emotional content the show actually does or doesn’t have. I do agree with one of your statements: that Criminal Intent “...rarely tries to grab your emotions the way SVU does...” I think it’s true that Criminal Intent doesn’t try to grab your emotions in the same way. And I don’t think they tried to this time, either. Some of the emotions were a little more overt than usual – easier to read – especially Eames, when she was on the stand. But it was still not in anything like the style I’ve seen from Benson and Stabler. Munch and Fin don’t seem to me to be part of the SVU style – I could see Fin transferring into MCS with no problem. But I think when you talk about the way SVU does emotion you must be talking primarily about Stabler and Benson. And I agree that they have a very different emotional style. It seems to be one that you like better than the Criminal Intent emotional style, and one that I don’t like as well. But that’s just a matter of personal taste. My real disagreement is with the idea that Criminal Intent is primarily intellectual, rather than emotional. It’s the balance of the two – the combination of high-level intellect and deep emotion – that I find so unique and marvelous about this series.
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Post by maherjunkie on Nov 12, 2005 10:33:12 GMT -5
"Connie is from "Sound Bodies" and he DOES hit Goren. If it helps you to remember, it's a Bishop episode."
Does Goren respond in return?
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Post by Patcat on Nov 12, 2005 11:31:03 GMT -5
Observer;
I agree with your comments regarding SVU and CI. I do find CI intellectually as well as emotionally engaging, and one reason why I prefer it to SVU is that I find SVU to emotionally in my face. I admire SVU and I genuinely like many of the characters, especially Benson and Fin, and all of the performances are excellent. But I prefer the relative restraint of LOCI and Goren and Eames. I don't think there's ever been a show quite like LOCI in its combination of the intellectual and the emotional.
I know it's frequently compared to Columbo, but, while I certainly enjoyed (and still do when I catch it in reruns) Columbo, I was never emotionally engaged by the show and its title character. I care about Goren and Eames, and hurt when they hurt.
Patcat
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 12, 2005 13:09:56 GMT -5
Beautifuly said, Observer2!! thats exactly what i think about the show as well, except i'm not as good at articulating my thoughts & views as you are. I wish more people would stop classifying CI too much under the unbrella of 'law & order'. Though it may be a spinoff of 'mothership' it goes in a different direction emotionally.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 12, 2005 22:39:51 GMT -5
Observer, It wasn't tension or lack of tension in Gorens facial muscles that I interpreted as disgust, it was his eyes. His eyes read disgust. And his head held was held high and stiff as he was leaving the courtroom, as he walking towards Eames and Carver before they seen him approaching. I did not see him give any kind of a smile when he said "I am an acquired taste", rather, he seemed to smirk at her. I didn't see him give her reassurance, rather just brush her off and walk away. Even when he said "Im happy you withdrew your letter", I didn't see a smile, rather another smirk. Eames' expression was not of relief when Goren walked away, she looked weary. Her sorrowed expression as Goren walked away is one of the main reasons I find his words insincere. Another though: usually they walk away together. This time he walked away from her, and she did not follow as she usually does, instead just stood there watching him walk away. Eh, difference in interpretation! ;D Sorry if I'm repeating myself in my answer!
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 12, 2005 23:04:56 GMT -5
I can see how you might've interpretted Goren's smile as a smirk, as there was a degree of self-deprecation in the line "I am an acquired taste." But I didn't find any animosity towards Eames in that moment. Also, he doesn't say "I'm *happy* you withdrew the letter." He says, "I'm *lucky* you withdrew the letter." Small difference, but it does change the meaning of what he's saying to her. By telling her he feels lucky that she's still his partner, he's acknowledging that he's lucky she decided to stick it out with him, lucky that she gave their partnership time to find a rhythm and get beyond his quirks. He seems entirely earnest in that moment. And the fact that he walks away rather than hanging around in awkward silence, or forcing additional conciliatory statements out of Eames isn't Goren's style. He was allowing her some space, while also acknowledging that everything he needed as an "explanation" for the letter had already been said by Eames on the stand. I thought it was a very touching (and, yes, emotional) exchange. Yup, different interpretations.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 13, 2005 0:50:56 GMT -5
As someone whose smile is often mistaken for a smirk (residual effects of Bell's palsy), I can understand and fully appreciate how members can differ in their perceptions of the interaction between Det. Goren and Eames in the corridor.
I personally agree with the posters who suggest that each detective is giving the other the appropriate space to fully take in the revelations made in the court room and make his or her own accommodations to them, without any need for touchy-feely dramatics.
And rather than driving a wedge between them, I believe this experience will make the Goren/Eames partnership even stronger. After all, she did stick with him despite her initial misgivings so that five years after the letter was written, they are still working partners who have learned from each other and relied on the other's strengths to make the whole of the team even greater than the sum of its individual parts.
And besides that, Eames really didn't reveal anything in the letter that Goren hasn't already discovered about himself, insofar as his investigative methods are concerned, and how difficult it must be for a by-the-book partner to adjust to him.
Eames might have been blindsided that her initial reservations were revealed so abruptly in court. But she handled the situation by explaining how she came to appreciate Goren's methods over the course of the past five years. So what was initially intended by the judge and his lawyer as an attack on Goren ended up demonstrating how really good he is at what he does--and how Eames has come to value Goren as a partner.
I interpreted Goren's "acquired taste" comment as genuinely sincere without being sappy, which is to say, true to his nature. And I genuinely believed him when he said he was lucky Eames eventually withdrew her request. Both detectives for sure were deeply affected by what had happened, but what I see most of all in their respective reactions is relief that the partnership was able to survive and even thrive in spite of--or maybe because of--their respective differences.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 13, 2005 1:46:14 GMT -5
Locifan,
I know Goren said "lucky' instead of "happy". I just typed "happy" instead. So sue me! hehehehe ;D
My point about him walking away was not expecting dramatics from him, the point is was they had work left to do. And the other point being her expression as he walked away. Of course Goren did not show any "animosity" towards her but, I did see that he was hurt and unhappy with he, which is what I’d said in the first place. Which she seemed to sense, based on her expression as he walked away.
Regardless of interpretation, positive or negative, these scenes (including Eames' lame "explanation") are the main reasons I voted this show a D!
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 13, 2005 15:46:59 GMT -5
Locifan, I know Goren said "lucky' instead of "happy". I just typed "happy" instead. So sue me! hehehehe ;D My point about him walking away was not expecting dramatics from him, the point is was they had work left to do. No law suits coming at you from this direction. But saying he was "happy" doesn't mean the same as "lucky". That was MY point. And, actually, at the point in the story where Goren and Eames meet up in the corridor after her testimony, they DON'T have any additional work to do. At least not on this case. They are there observing testimony. Eames testifies BEFORE Ethan's recalled to the witness stand and makes the remarks that cause them to have additional investigative work to do. But at the time of Eames' testimony, they're done with the case and are just observing the prosecution (which cops sometimes do)...
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Post by blucougar57 on Nov 13, 2005 15:58:07 GMT -5
Good Lord, I don't think any CI episode has generated as much interest as this. I can't comment, having not seen the episode yet - but there is a copy on its way to me and I can't wait to see it for myself, and see all the parts that have caused so much intense discussion!
I am going to comment on the intellectual/emotional debate, though. Purely my own point of view, but while I enjoy CI as an intellectual show, I doubt I would have become such an avid fan if I didn't connect with the show or the characters on an emotional level as well. I don't know anyone who has stuck with any show through all its seasons if they didn't feel that way - even if they aren't consciously aware of it.
As for SVU, I used to watch it, before CI arrived on our screens, and I have to admit that SVU is the prime reason that I didn't bother tuning in to CI for the entire first season. It had nothing to do with the emotional content of the episodes... Actually, let me rephrase that. It had everything to do with the emotional content, but mainly in that they seemed to lose more cases than they won. I'd spend the entire episode getting sucked right in emotionally, and I hated the frustration of seeing them lose a case and have a killer/rapist/etc go free.
I've always loved that fact that CI didn't go down that road. But I digress. I believe CI has just the right balance of intellectual/emotional content, and we are fortunate that Mr D'Onofrio and Ms Erbe have the talent to pull it off, week after week.
I think I'm rambling now, but I'm blaming Monday morning, and not enough sleep over the weekend.
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Post by chawol on Nov 13, 2005 20:20:52 GMT -5
Help please!!!!!!!!!!!!! In The WEE SMALL HOURS Our TV stoped tappiing. Missed one hour. Just have to catch up since reading the response. Where was Bethany found? Why is BOBBY's MOm involved? What happened at the end? Please help us out!
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js
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 143
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Post by js on Nov 13, 2005 22:11:23 GMT -5
WEE SMALL HOURS is scheduled to replay on Novl 19th. Hopefully you will get that show.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 13, 2005 22:52:52 GMT -5
WEE SMALL HOURS is scheduled to replay on Novl 19th. Hopefully you will get that show. Oh, good! i'm glad to hear that, i want to see it again & parhaps burn a DVD of it using my brand-new computer! ;D. I' was just at the USA wabsite writing down the weekly CI showings on my calender & just saw that they are also going to replay 'Wee Small Hrs' Pt's 1 & 2 on Fri, Nov, 18 at 11PM c/p!!
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Post by chawol on Nov 14, 2005 10:11:41 GMT -5
Since I am new Just wanted to thank those who responded and told me of the rerum of The WEE SMALL HOURS. We will enjoy Thanks Chawol
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