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Post by notty on Nov 14, 2005 11:56:30 GMT -5
I think the courtroom sequence is being over-analyzed. It's all speculation, anyway, and in my experience, people project what they want to see on to the characters.
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Post by blucougar57 on Nov 14, 2005 14:42:17 GMT -5
I think the courtroom sequence is being over-analyzed. It's all speculation, anyway, and in my experience, people project what they want to see on to the characters. You're probably right, but picking scenes to pieces is just so much fun!! ;D And as long as we don't start insulting each other, it's all healthy venting, isn't it?
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Post by arleneb on Nov 14, 2005 19:23:33 GMT -5
I loved this episode- I was also screaming at the TV when that cop showed up to see his mother- and Kathryn's performance on the stand was unbelievable-and when Vincent went after the Judge after he found out what he did to his mother I said "you go boy". It was great
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digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
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Post by digresser on Nov 14, 2005 21:45:05 GMT -5
I don't think that this was posted yet, but with so many pages on this thread it's hard to be sure! Here are the Nielson ratings for the week of "In the Wee Small Hours". tv.yahoo.com/nielsen/17 LAW AND ORDER:CRIM INTENT NBC 9:00PM 9.4 (rating) 14.0 (share) 10,364,000 (Households)
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Post by blucougar57 on Nov 16, 2005 15:08:28 GMT -5
Having now seen this episode (happily only two weeks late, and not six months or more...) I can finally add my thoughts and opinions. Given the lively debate that's taken place, though, can I first emphasise that I'm well aware that each person is likely to interpret things a different way. This is my point of view on those two most discussed scenes, and my interpretations. That's all.
Firstly - WOW!!! What an episode! It was so good that even my father, who has actually gotten sick of cop shows and won't watch any at all at the moment, sat down to watch it with me and Mum. And there was so much to enjoy! I anticipated all those great one-liners, like 'There they go, Ocean's 2', and 'They couldn't stop an asthma attack', and we all had a good laugh. I have to admit, I enjoyed knowing the tension that was coming, while my parents were waiting for Goren to do his customary 'wrap-up'. It was fun, seeing them caught by surprise for once.
Forgive me if I start rambling. I watched the episode through, then hightailed it to another room to re-watch certain scenes over again. and again. and again. You get the idea. I wrote down my thoughts as I was rewatching them, but it wasn't especially easy to get some thoughts clearly into words, but I'll do my best.
Now - the courtroom scenes. Someone described Eames as being blindsided by the letter, and they were right. She was blindsided by it (gawd, I love that word, blindsided) and her reaction was spot on for someone who has just been caught totally off-guard by something that they had long-since forgotten about. She wasn't the only one, though. Goren was blindsided as well. I initially tried reading his expressions through Eames' testimony. Up until the letter was produced, Goren had that little smile on his face, even when the lawyer was attacking Eames over his treatment of 'deadbeat dads'. He clearly wasn't worried by that tactic - he probably was expecting it to happen, given that the judge had already attacked him directly over it in front of Eames and Carver. But when the letter was produced, I could see it in his face, and his eyes (and my god, is VDO a good actor, that one can get so much out of an otherwise passive expression!). His stomach literally dropped away on him, and he felt the first hints of panic, that something was very wrong, that they were about to be hit with something totally unexpected. I could read an initial reaction of hurt and embarrassment in his reaction, subtle though it was, but there wasn't any surprise. I gathered that it was something he had expected to have happen during the early stages of their partnership, but obviously never actually came to light. There was very clearly a sense of hurt, mixed with resignation in him when she finished reading the excerpt.
When Carver redirected, though, his expression and reactions changed - again oh so subtley. There was understanding in his eyes. I may be mistaken, but I thought I detected the slightest of nods when she made the comment about him being an acquired taste. He got reassurance out of her explanation for why she withdrew the letter. Her verbal affirmation of him effectively pushed aside any negativity that could have come out having that letter brought back into the light of day. In my opinion, by the time Eames finished speaking, the predominant look in Goren's eyes was respect.
In the next scene, I saw Goren as still hurting - of course it would have stung badly, especially having it aired in front of so many people, and being put on public record. He was still hurting, but he was also accepting. The way he was holding his head higher the usual - I didn't see that as him deliberately looking down on her, and I never thought he was sneering at her. The head held high was a classic physical pose that I see many people adopt when they're trying to keep their emotions under control - particularly when they're feeling very upset. It was a very personal attack, even moreso than the one on him through his mother, and it had left him hurt and shaken. He was, literally, trying to get a grip, but to me he also seemed anxious to find Alex, and show her that everything was okay - ie, no hard feelings, water under the bridge. When he got to her, and was looking down at her - not on her - I saw a mild amusement at how well she'd had him pegged, even five years ago. There was respect in his expression, as well as gratitude towards her. He shook his head as she tried to apologise, he was telling her there was no need for her to apologise to him. He wasn't brushing her off. He agreed with her assessment of him, and was genuinely grateful for her decision to stick it out. It was telling, in the way that he stared at the ground while he said 'I am an acquired taste', but then he looked her in the eye, and held her gaze when he said 'I'm lucky you withdrew the letter'. When he walked away from her, I saw two prime emotions in her expression - sadness that they'd been forced into such a difficult situation, and gratitude for his understanding and acceptance. Actually, no, I saw a third. I read bemusement in her expression. It was very subtle, but to me it suggested wonderment at his show of understanding. I saw Goren's walking away from her as his non-verbal way of saying 'it's over, it's done with, let's move on'. I didn't interpret that as him giving Eames the brush-off.
LOL, I did envisage them sharing a big hug later on, off-camera after that scene! Kudos to Kathryn Erbe for a stellar performance. It was great to see her given the chance to shine, even if it was only for a couple of short scenes.
Secondly - the phone call from Carmel Ridge. Seeing Goren in a rage like that was eye-opening, but at no point was he out of control. He was highly agitated, and rightly so, but never out of control. Like Ms Erbe, that was a fine piece of acting by Mr D'Onofrio - both during that scene and one immediately following it.
Goren reacted to Eames in the way that he did because his mother's welfare has always been his burden, and his alone. He couldn't just let that burden go in an instant, no matter who it was that was offering help. I think he wanted to accept - he showed that in the way he cut Eames off and started telling her just what had happened. His whole demeanour there was like a child who had finally decided to come clean over something terrible, but was still highly defensive about it. He wanted to accept, but years of conditioning himself to shoulder that burden alone made it impossible for him to do it - especially in a spur of the moment situation like that. He was abrupt with Eames because he just wasn't used to reaching out when it was his mother who was the central issue. When she offered to get Deakins, his reaction was very much 'This is my problem, I have to deal with it on my own, just like I always have'. Smart as Goren is, he is still intrinsically human, and sometimes humans just don't know how to ask for or accept help. The whole hands in the air thing was him simply saying 'I know you're trying to help, but you just can't'. Very typically Bobby Goren. He wasn't deliberately trying to shut Eames out - he just didn't know any other way to deal with it.
Now, after my very long post, I'll leave it there, but it was truly a fantastic episode, and I'm so glad I didn't have to wait another six months before seeing it! ;D
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 17, 2005 0:59:04 GMT -5
Observer, In four seasons of Criminal Intent, I am aware of Goren calling Eames by her first name ONCE, and that was not even directly to her face. It was in Faith, in season 1, when they go to the university and Eames plays at being a student working on her thesis. I always got the sense that Goren always called her Eames out of respect and professionalism. He sees her as an equal, but also, he doesn't call any other cops by their first names and so he doesn't with her, either. LOL I'll try to make a list of the episodes where his first name is used. Season 1 The third horsemen- she calls him over to look at something, using his first name. & when they discuss abortion, the exchange is Eames' dry humor at its best: Eames: What do you really think? Bobby: I'll tell you what i think when i get pregnant Eames: You're going to have to do a lot better then that, Bobby. Bobby: Okay (rolls his chair close to hers). Life is full of incertianity, people need to have options, abortion has to be one of those options. Anyway, that is what i think. Faith- i cant remember the exact part, but i know she used his first name. (damn my over-loaded mind) The Good Doctor- Deakins: I'm going with Bobby on this one. Season 3 Pas De Deux- Eames: You know i'm good for the ride, Bobby but i saw her & i'm not sure either. & of course in the Wee Small Hours when she is trying to calm him down after he gets a call about his mother. She looks genuinely worried for him, worried that he might do something rash, his response was very... lol i cant think of a word to describe it right now. "...That's my mom, okay?" & they he gallops off to confront the judge, Eames shakes her head before grabbing her coat to follow him. i would have loved to have been a fly in the car on the way over there! To sum it all up, isnt a nicname kind of an intimate thing? something that only your family, close friends & close colleagues call you? Parhaps that Bobby calls Eames by her last name because it ias become kind of a nicname to him? She only seems to call him by his surname when she has to get his attention, like in the season 1 ep 'Badge' when Bobby is hounding the mother of that crooked cop.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 17, 2005 9:42:32 GMT -5
I don't think Goren rushes to confront the judge--I think he goes to check on his mom, and the confrontation with the judge takes place a day or so later. And I think by that time Eames, Carver, and Goren have figured out a plan to trap the judge.
Patcat
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Post by Metella on Nov 17, 2005 11:08:25 GMT -5
Very interesting take - I can totally see that - Goren has time in the evening to plot how best to handle the judge .... since I never pay attention to the time/date thing; only the place - I kinda stay oblivious to eddys in the time(date)space universe.
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Post by willow2tree on Nov 17, 2005 11:52:53 GMT -5
My take on the timeline is that Goren did go to the judge immediately. He told the carmel ridge person on the phone that he would be there later, sometime that night. As Eames was putting on her coat to follow Goren, she was calling Carver on her cell phone, and then they all met up at the judge's chambers. I think they all got there separately, but I think it was right after Goren got the call.
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digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
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Post by digresser on Nov 17, 2005 12:16:55 GMT -5
While your take is very interesting, Patcat, I have to agree with Willow2tree. Another bit of evidence which suggests that the confrontation with the judge occurred immediately after the phone call is the fact that Goren and Eames are wearing the same clothes in both scenes. And as Willow2tree pointed out, Eames is wearing her coat, while Goren who stormed off without grabbing his, isn't. Had time lapsed, Goren probably would have been wearing his coat as well. Still, your version isthought provoking, Patcat.
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Post by blucougar57 on Nov 17, 2005 15:42:05 GMT -5
LOL! I know what you're getting at, kawaiidragonfoe821, but I was more referring to Goren's persistence in calling Eames by her last name. I know she calls him 'Bobby' a lot.
That's an interesting PoV on when Goren, Eames and Carver really did arrive at the judge's chambers. All takes are quite plausible. I agree with Willow2tree, and Digresser, though. I think Goren did head straight for the judge's chamber - it's the sort of thing he would do in a situation like that. Of course, whether Eames and Carver caught him before he actually went in, and managed to draw up a plan of attack is another possibility.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 17, 2005 16:02:03 GMT -5
Yes, the clothes suggest Goren went immediately to the judge--if so, it says something to the man's self-control that he was able to turn the situation into an opportunity to catch the judge.
To support my theory, though, Goren's comments suggest he might have actually seen his mother. Of course, he might be repeating what her doctors told him.
Patcat
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digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
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Post by digresser on Nov 17, 2005 19:14:21 GMT -5
If only Ed Harris produced for real what Deakins had once mentioned: The Goren Show. That's right, 24 hour coverage of the quirky detective. Then we'd know for certain the answer about the confrontation with the judge, as well the answers to other important Criminal Intent questions. Such as how many meals of veal can one man actually eat in a row? How much of a berth do other shoppers really give him when they see the 6 foot 5 inch oddly-tilted man smelling and handling the goods in the produce section? Boxers or briefs? Of course Vincent D'Onofrio would take a lot of convincing, but it would provide us with good television all day! Though I, for one, would be come a sheltered recluse. Ah well, I can dream... Another reason I think that the confrontation immediately followed the phone call is the timing of it all. Goren got off the phone with Carmel Ridge at almost 5:30 pm. There doesn't seem much time to go back and forth from the center. He'd probably want to wait for his mom to wake up from the sedatives as well. Also, the staggered arrival of Goren, Eames and Carver fits with the "no-timed for a planned confrontation" theory. I think Goren went to confront the judge and, with the arrival of Carver, decided to use the opportunity to provoke a confession. Then again, I'm of the opinion that Bobby Goren is a man of excellent self-control, which could definitely color my interpretation of the events. Either way, what a well-acted, well-scripted scene! One O/T note. I've noticed that about half the time I'm referred to on the boards it's as "digressor" instead of "digresser". I think the common misspelling is because in English "-or" is the better ending to describe one who digresses. When I first began using the name, however (6 years ago on the Neopets website), I didn't know that there was an English name to describe one who digresses. So I went with the French word "digresser" which translates as "to digress". Y'all can probably care less about this, but my English major pride demands I defend myself, even when it's rather moot and pointless. Thanks for listening to my mini-rant!
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Post by willow2tree on Nov 18, 2005 11:42:45 GMT -5
Oh, Digresser, what a hoot! The Goren Show! All Goren, all the time. The picture you painted of him in the produce section reduced me to tears, I was laughing so hard! Thanks for a boost to my day. ;D
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 18, 2005 17:38:16 GMT -5
I'm know I'm a bit late into this conversation thanks to my sister crashing my computer. *shakes fist at sister!!!!* Anyway, I wanna take a bit of a dive into the "bat cave". ;D
I can't help but wonder what would have happened if Goren had gone alone to confront the judge. I think the fact that Carver and Eames followed him gave him a bit of support and calmed him down, instead of him being left to his own devices and made a bigger mess out of things...
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