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Post by BegToDiffer on Nov 26, 2006 21:02:13 GMT -5
It is nice the VDO is enjoying all this. Too bad some of us aren't! And I wonder about two things, when VDO says "We'll have to think of something" is he including himself in deciding how it ends for Goren? Course, he might be a better candidate than leaving it to Warren. Also, if Goren ended with blue pee, I wouldn't want to know.
While I didn't even want to think about an end for Goren, the thought of them writing him off as a nut case gone mad sickens me. I think I'd rather have him shot dead.
To Metella and Techguy, you express my thoughts exactly. If it were possible, I'd fly in and pick both of you up, take you out for drinks (diet coke of course) and remember the good old days of LOCI.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 27, 2006 12:24:54 GMT -5
While I didn't even want to think about an end for Goren, the thought of them writing him off as a nut case gone mad sickens me. I think I'd rather have him shot dead. To Metella and Techguy, you express my thoughts exactly. If it were possible, I'd fly in and pick both of you up, take you out for drinks (diet coke of course) and remember the good old days of LOCI. Take me too! I share their sentiments. Plus I need a good stiff drink ;D
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 27, 2006 12:28:42 GMT -5
While I didn't even want to think about an end for Goren, the thought of them writing him off as a nut case gone mad sickens me. I think I'd rather have him shot dead. To Metella and Techguy, you express my thoughts exactly. If it were possible, I'd fly in and pick both of you up, take you out for drinks (diet coke of course) and remember the good old days of LOCI. Take me too! I share their sentiments. Plus I need a good stiff drink ;D Road trip! ;D
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Post by Metella on Nov 27, 2006 13:16:58 GMT -5
Well, I am disappointed that the Goren character seems not to have been fully fleshed out. I think that will disappoint Observer also; knowing that Goren's "pathology" has not been determined - means that some of his mannerisms are just off the cuff drama stuff.
And why, if there is no pathology, just some PTSD, do the writers/VDO/others feel it is necessary to bring him down in a mucky cloud of pathetic weakness. bluck
NO diet coke for me - whiskey is the key; but I'll toast with your coke.
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Post by madger on Nov 27, 2006 19:25:07 GMT -5
I thing VDO is just messing with us, Mr. Balcer would have had a good idea of Goren's character even before the show started. What Warren does with it though, is anybody's guess.
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Post by musicwench on Nov 27, 2006 21:40:12 GMT -5
I would just rather they end the series with both Goren and Eames still working Major Case. No breakdowns, no breakups, no one rides off into the sunset. They just stay there so they can do a movie down the road. ;-)
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Post by outerbankschick on Nov 27, 2006 21:41:31 GMT -5
I'm with you, Madger. VDO has a quirky sense of humor himself. What he said fits right in with that!
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spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Nov 27, 2006 22:04:57 GMT -5
I agree with you wholeheartedly musicwench - I wouldn't mind seeing more of a "neutral" ending myself!
This episode was more "difficult" for me to watch since I missed it the first time around (and couldn't help myself from reading posts on these boards...). Part of me enjoys the more "melodramatic" aspects of this season while I also really appreciate the more subtle nature of these issues in the previous seasons. I'm going to just have to wait and watch the rest of the season before I can properly digest the events in TWAH.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 28, 2006 0:56:33 GMT -5
I'd love to see it play out that way too. They can go through the wringer just as long as they come out clean at the end!
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 28, 2006 8:37:09 GMT -5
I feel embarrassed to admit this, but I realize I have emotions invested in these imaginary TV characters. I want to see them happy and content. Here's hoping Goren and Eames ride off into the sunset in their black SUV, with the UO tied to the bumper...
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Post by filmnoir5 on Dec 2, 2006 0:34:37 GMT -5
After watching WAR on Wednesday night, I respectfully submit that Goren, Eames, and Ross all acted within the established bounds of their characters, at least as much as they could when confronted with an unknown situation. Both Eames and Ross--at least after he gained some knowledge of Goren's situation--reached out to Goren. And I think Goren was trying to reach back to them, but he was overwhelmed. Throughout most of the episode, he did his job, and he did it well. His comment to Eames "to back off" may have been a strike at the one person he knew he could attack at that moment. Eames was justifiably hurt and angry, and I think Goren was genuinely apologetic when he returned after "cooling down." But he didn't expect and was also hurt by Eames' anger, and I think this may have caused his final outburst. I can appreciate those who see these behavior as out of character for Goren--and I don't intend to be condescending with that remark--I do see it. I see this behavior as somewhat more extreme, but still within the boundaries of the Goren I know. I think what will determine if Goren remains Goren is what happens with the character in the coming episodes. Patcat (who really appreciates the open and toleant nature of this board) I agree. As for as the in character out of character, I saw it as a situation where a person never really knows how they will handle or react to a situation until they are confronted with that situation. Even people who know a person can speculate how an individual would act or usually acts but until a person faces certain dilemmas or problems no one really knows how they will react. I thought it was one of the best episodes of the season and even the series. I read where one of the next cases is about Jeanine Pirro and her husband played by wonderful actors Xander Berkley and Donna Murphy and may be a Goren/Eames episode. I predict this will be more of an episode like Bedfellows and Masquerade. Like SVU episodes that explore characters and their conflicts, the next Goren/Eames episode that even refers to War At Home may not air until Feb or who knows even May depending on whether the show is renewed or not. Theresa Randle as the ADA still has not made her 3rd appearance and Whoopi has yet to reappear.
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Post by LOCIfan on Dec 9, 2006 14:39:03 GMT -5
I found this episode to be a huge cop out by the writers. The plot of this crime exists as a prop to support the scenes in which Goren is dealing with his mother. While Rita Moreno is a fine actress, the character of mother Goren would have been better left off screen.
One of the things that has always distinguished CI in terms of the sophistication of its drama has been that, as in Chekhov, the most profound personal dramas happen off stage, so that what the audience is left with is the residual aftermath of all of that muck. Much as it is in life. We may know what happened to our best friend, but we are not there with him when it happens, and we only are there to experience how it has affected that person. A histrionic, impulsive Goren is not the character that I've come to know and be interested in. The Goren I know is too compartmentalized to allow his personal dramas to affect his work, except in ancillary ways. And that's what's always been interesting about him. To me, that is.
In this episode, he's not even engaged in the case at hand. And, neither was I. It was background noise.
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Post by LOCIfan on Dec 9, 2006 14:49:18 GMT -5
Also, a post script. I think this kind of episode, where the melodrama is right out there for all to see and ooh and aaah at is Mr. Leight's style and is the mark of the "new" CI, which is not my cup of tea. I don't find this kind of episode satisfying, and I don't find Goren to be the same character I've come to know and be fascinated by.
I'd rather watch repeats from seasons 1-5 on cable than watch this style of episode, and that's what I've done. These days, I watch House instead of CI on Tuesdays. The viewing experience is much more satisfying. House is still House.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Dec 10, 2006 2:43:59 GMT -5
Also, a post script. I think this kind of episode, where the melodrama is right out there for all to see and ooh and aaah at is Mr. Leight's style and is the mark of the "new" CI, which is not my cup of tea. I don't find this kind of episode satisfying, and I don't find Goren to be the same character I've come to know and be fascinated by. Add me to the disgruntled list. After reading Techguy's (and Locifan's??) posts, I now see why some people were so upset with "Death Roe". While I didn't see why others had thought that incest was trivialized in that episode, I do see how some though that the military was trivialized in TWAH. Even though I am agreeing with this, ironically, I was so distracted by the melodrama that I never even noticed the trivializing. Now I want to rewatch "Death Roe".
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Post by SarahIvy on Dec 10, 2006 4:08:40 GMT -5
This conflict between the world of Family and the world of Work dominates the episode and determines how characters are perceived so that their knowledge of each other is partial and our knowledge of them is relative to context. Previously we always met our detectives as professional characters, but “sometimes you want to be more than your job”(Eames). This episode takes everything out of character, including the format of the episode itself Ross, Eames and Goren are all out of “uniform” and out of character. The above is some random snippets....but to all of it I say YES. I was thinking a bit about the whole "out of character" discussion a few days ago, and I got to thinking about work relationships. I love those moments when you get to see whole new facets of someone's personality. There is something profound about seeing someone's outside life, their home, their family. Even under perfectly mundane circumstances I find it incredibly interesting. Knowing someone at work, and being friends with them through that filter is one thing...your relationship changes once you've been exposed to their outside life. Oftentimes my insights into who someone is are changed quite a bit when I see their home for the first time. It can show you things that you would have never guessed about that person's personality. That's how I feel about this episode. And because it's the magical land of TV, we were allowed to get glimpses that otherwise wouldn't be possible. Goren is without his notebook for most of the episode, tossing it aside carelessly and even leaving it behind, when usually he clings to it fanatically. Usually he is single-minded and concentrated on his work, but here he seems to be indecisive, preoccupied with conflicting emotions towards Family and Work, constantly being called away from one by the other. This Goren is insecure, subservient to his formidable mother. When he says, “I’m with Family” he is in fact with one person, the most unmotherly of Mothers, all head and no body, manipulative and impenetrable. We see a man who had to become his own mother from a young age, whose love is not reciprocated. It explains a lot about Goren, his refuge in work and attitude towards others, his essential privacy and self-reliance, his attraction to the unlovable. I found this description of Goren very thought-provoking. I'm not sure I have anything to add to it right now, or even if I entirely agree with all of it; I simply wanted to say that I enjoyed the food for thought.
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