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Post by deathroe on Aug 4, 2007 11:09:42 GMT -5
I am seeing with everyone's posts that the questioning of Goren's paternity causes multiple problems. It seems extrinsic to the fabric of the show. It would have seemed more in place on a show like SVU, where the characters' issues (eg. Olivia's paternity) impact how they act at work, rather than being resources for how they solve the crime.
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Post by Cassie on Aug 4, 2007 11:49:35 GMT -5
True, but the whole writing style has changed. You can see with the way Ross is written as the boss, he has a more hands on approach to his detectives then Deakins did. In one scene, he in "Silencer" he is trying to get to know Eames. He learns more about her hubby, and he suggest to her, that the interpretor wouldn't be a bad catch for a guy. I care more about the characters then the crime. Always have
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Post by deathroe on Aug 4, 2007 12:36:28 GMT -5
To me, one paradox about the show is that you get better characters through that indirect approach: you almost learn more about Goren and Eames when the focus is not always on them and their endless emotional issues (and Benson and Stabler, for instance, are great characters, but I think that that really is what has separated CI from SVU).
And yes, the writing style is changing--and it is not unwelcome to learn more about Goren and Eames! But I wish that they were slightly more consistent. S5 Eames to me is a particularly glaring example of inconsistency in character.
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Post by musicwench on Aug 4, 2007 15:25:10 GMT -5
And yes, the writing style is changing--and it is not unwelcome to learn more about Goren and Eames! But I wish that they were slightly more consistent. S5 Eames to me is a particularly glaring example of inconsistency in character. Agreed! For me it was the worst season of the series. As much as many seemed to not like the personal direction of this last season, I found it much more watchable. And I too like the subtleties of watching little bits and pieces of Goren and Eames being fed out to us throughout a case file as opposed to having them flooding out throughout half the episode, which tends to take away from the case. Although I must say Endgame was remarkable and Goren's personal trauma pretty much was the case. Most well done.
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meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
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Post by meggyd on Aug 5, 2007 4:58:40 GMT -5
Wow. I've just read the thirty pages of discussion - and now that I've FINALLY seen this episode, I still want to add my two cents worth, even though everything's probably already been said. So much in this episode to comment on.
I was really worried about how this episode was going to work. You have to admit, the bare bones of the plot - serial killer on death row taunts detective about his parentage, and perhaps is his parent, while his mother slowly dies and his brother sniffs around for money - sounds like something more suited to Days of Our Lives or The Young and the Restless. The thing that saves it is the quality of the acting, making the unbelievable believable. Everyone was amazing.
Francis seems totally manipulative to me, and I don't think it was a recent thing. She's a strong personality, mentally ill or not, judgemental and outspoken. I got the distinct impression that concern for anyone else's feelings - not just Bobby's - has never been her guiding light. From the backstory up to this point, I'd assumed that Bobby's father had really been the sole bad guy in the breakdown of the marriage, something that Bobby seems to firmly believe. One phrase in this episode changed that impression for me. It was when Francis was assuring Bobby that she had not seen Mark after she married his father, she had finished with "all the other men". That made it sound like there had been quite a few. And she lied about not continuing with Mark, so that might have meant that there were other men also. It just made me think she was a player, too, during the marriage.
Bobby does seem devoted to her. I don't think that makes him a Mama's boy in the sense that I'd use the phrase, but he was in a tangled emotional knot with her. He definately regards her as a victim, to be protected, no matter what she throws at him. I was amused at the idea that she probably dressed him, it made me wonder what she thought of the pinstriped monstrosity a few episodes back. He did manage to go out into the army and get away for a while, see the world. I wondered - in Australia many people go into the Army because if you enter particular streams, they pay for the soldier to complete a University qualification, which is a great way to get a degree and not have to come up with the money up front or go into tremendous debt. If money was tight for Bobby, maybe this was a reason he joined up? (Is it the same system in the US?)
Like Eames, I was never convinced that Francis necessarily was brutilized by Brady. For Bobby it provided a convenient explanation, an out for some of his mother's behaviour. Perhaps she was raped, but I wouldn't put total faith in Frank's explanation. Frank seems too smooth to ever trust, there are hints of how charming and articulate he could be when he wanted, yet an equal number of hints as to how he can use his intelligence to twist everything to suit his own point of view - "I guess the Lord wanted me to look great for Mom".
I liked the power Eames showed in this episode. Her strength at dealing with Brady was impressive. She would never have let him go alone to see Brady though - that was a convenient tv plot device, not a symbol of trust between partners. She'd guaranteed to Ross that she would oversee what was going on and that she was detatched enough to stop him going overboard yet immediately prior to his leaving he wouldn't listen to her doubts or her attempt to be the voice of reason. No way would she think that his going there alone was a good idea, and as the more grounded partner, she would have gone with him or stopped him.
We do have enough of that with SVU, which like some, I now cannot watch because it is so unbelievable. Stabler would have been kicked off the force years ago, and now Benson is becoming just as unstable. I hope CI doesn't go any further down that road.
Poor Ross. I never thought I'd end up feeling sorry for him. He keeps trying to do the right thing but it never is right. Bobby was throwing a tantrum there. Understandable, because he's under so much stress and is so unhappy, but it was still a hissy fit. He's never willing to let Ross be the boss. Ross always seems so surprised when Goren reacts to what he's said so badly. I'm not sure communication is Ross's strong suit. As to his behaviour in dealing mainly with Eames, at many leadership courses I've been to they've advised that when dealing with difficult people one strategy is to work through someone who does get along with that person. Ross strikes me as someone who might still be learning some leadership skills and taking some advice literally. Though the continual "Your partner" annoys me too, it sounds really accusatory and like Eames has total responsibility for what Goren does.
I enjoy seeing a relationship on television where a man and a woman work together, respect each other, support each other and it's not necessarily based on sex or lust. It would ruin a lot of my admiration for the characters and their partnership if they got together. Relationships on television are increasingly sexualised, it's a good thing to have a model of people who care deeply for each other but don't necessarily fall into bed.
I enjoyed the episode and it was a great season ender (it was shown after Renewal in Oz). It's great to have so many things to mull over and discuss. Bring on next season.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 5, 2007 11:12:06 GMT -5
wow meggyd,
Makes me wonder that would be something, if neither Brady or Daddy Goren were his father. But I think Mama Goren was kinda giving a death bed confession and probably would have admitted if there were others, but boy would that be a story.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 5, 2007 13:31:07 GMT -5
Great post meggyd, worth the wait. Interesting that your Oz station made an executive decision to run Endgame after Renewal, making it your season finale. That was smart. Maybe USA will show that kind of intelligence this upcoming season. You have doubts that Brady brutalized Frances? Does that mean you believe her story about the car accident? Or is it that you don't believe she went away with Brady that weekend at all? I'm curious to know, if you don't mind. I swallowed the story hook, line & sinker myself. I like the sympathy you have for Ross. My affections for Bobby make me look at his outburst as justified, not a pissy fit, but I do see your point also. Goren's "you don't know how I think..what I need" was a build up of resentment from past episodes (as I'm sure you're aware). Ross didn't get that, so he was honestly surprised, then angry/hurt. I don't think Ross takes comments personally at work - he says what comes into his head & moves on. Goren mulls over things too much. That's a feminine quality he has. It's endearing, but not very macho or police like.
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Post by musicwench on Aug 5, 2007 15:23:15 GMT -5
Great post meggyd! I also kind of feel sorry for Ross. But then I've liked the character after the initial 'hey, you can't talk about Bobby like that' attitude I had in Blind Spot where it irked me that he kept telling Eames to keep an eye on Bobby.
I think Ross and Goren have a problem dealing with each other because they're kind of alike in many ways. Both are intelligent, both are obviously type A personalities and of course let's not forget the whole alpha male thing. And it seems that Bobby's not the only one who doesn't like to be contradicted - as Nicole once put it. I also think that Ross has a communication problem because he's so wound up it seems he just barks at people even if perhaps he's not. I also think he is a control freak which is why he always needs to be kept 'in the loop' and shows up at crime scenes while Deakins never did - to my recollection any way.
In this episode I thought he was more in the right than Goren was when Goren had his little outburst and Ross counted with taking him off the case. Generally I think Ross is a good guy with poor communication skills. Bobby's been having little tantrums with Ross throughout the season and quite honestly, if I were his boss, I'd be fed up, too and I wouldn't have put him back on the case because despite his telling Eames he's her partner and her responsibility, in the end, it's Ross' butt on the line. You've got to know that if something went wrong - i.e. Goren actually killed or seriously injured Brady (yes, I know he wouldn't have done it but Ross doesn't know him well enough to know that) then it's going to be under Ross' watch and he would have been called on it.
Ross does seem to have a thing about that. His reputation and his ability to run Major Case. It seems unlike Deakins, he seems to feel he has something to prove. Whether or not that's true, I can see how Goren would freak him out with his antics. Considering all season he hasn't been his usual early LOCI Bobby Goren self, I'm not surprised that Ross has a tendency to doubt him. I think his letting Goren back on the case is as much of a plot device as Eames letting Goren go see Brady alone.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 5, 2007 16:03:31 GMT -5
My gosh, thirty pages!
People with mental illnesses often don't make the best selections in sexual partners. It wouldn't surprise me if Frances had affairs before and during her marriage. Of course, she was Catholic, so perhaps Brady was the only affair.
I think something traumatic happened at Brady's cabin. The testimony of one of his "girlfriends' seems to foreshadow that.
I have some sympathy for Ross, but I'd have more if he'd have some for Bobby. At least refer to him by his name (g).
And I don't think that Bobby's tendency to mull over things too much is necessarily a feminine thing. It can be a bad thing for him--he does tend to think too much--but it is a quality that helps him do his job very well.
Patcat
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 5, 2007 18:42:00 GMT -5
My gosh, thirty pages! People with mental illnesses often don't make the best selections in sexual partners. It wouldn't surprise me if Frances had affairs before and during her marriage. Of course, she was Catholic, so perhaps Brady was the only affair. Patcat What does being catholic have to do with her only having one affair?
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Post by Patcat on Aug 5, 2007 20:18:51 GMT -5
Well, if you're Catholice you're supposed to be a virgin until you're married and not have affairs. Of course, there's a lot of Catholics, even in the early 1960s, who weren't virgins and had affairs. And still do (g). But if Frances Goren were a devout Catholic in those pre-Vatican II days--and, for that matter, a single woman of any faith in those pre-Birth Control pill and sexual revolution days--having an affair outside of marriage would be a very big and traumatic deal.
Patcat
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 5, 2007 21:10:07 GMT -5
Let me clarify one issue......I'm not speaking from experience here. But I would think that the first affair would be the most difficult. Taking that first step outside of the bounds of your marriage vows would be the hardest. Perhaps any affairs occuring after, might come easier. I'm starting to believe Frances was a player also......and not just with Brady. Not remaining a virgin until you're married will get you killed in some religions. In some parts of the world even today, young girls are forcibly mutilated (genitals) because it is believed that this will "keep them pure".
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meggyd
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 112
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Post by meggyd on Aug 6, 2007 2:47:44 GMT -5
It was the way the line was said that made me think she was a player, and didn't want her son to know, the anxious way she quickly said she'd finished with "all" the other men, trying to reassure Bobby about a question he hadn't asked and looking up at him worried about what he was thinking.
I'm just not sure that Brady did brutalize Francis. He might have, it was implied he could have, and she certainly was intelligent enough to use the way out the other victim did and survive, by pretending she liked it. It could also have been a car accident. Perhaps it was left ambiguous on purpose. Bobby was just so eager to jump on it, to say that must be the dividing line between Francis one way and Francis the other. And I think he wasn't basing it on his memories, he told Eames he was looking at pictures, and it was in those pictures he saw someone who was "never the same after that". And I think Frank would present things in whichever way made himself appear in the best light.
And, even though I think Goren is just wonderful as a character and would like to see him as close to perfect as humanly possible, the bottom line is that Ross is the boss and Goren really doesn't seem to be accepting that. Deakins let Goren essentially run his own show, Ross has the right to run things in a different way. You might be right, Musicwench, about the control freak thing, for whatever reason Ross runs at a much higher level of anxiety than Deakins ever did. But I also agree he doesn't have the right to constantly call him "your partner" and not by his name!
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Post by Patcat on Aug 6, 2007 8:15:53 GMT -5
I'm going to bring out one of my old arguments again. I think it took much of the first season for Deakins to begin to trust Eames and especially Goren. As several people noted, YESTERDAY marked an important change in the relationship between Deakins and the two detectives. Ross is a far less political and smooth operator than Deakins, but I think his unease with Goren is similar to Deakins' early reactions.
I believe what actually happened between Frances Goren and Brady was deliberately written ambiguously, and I also think it's some of the best, subtlest writing of this season. While I think it's quite possible that Frances Goren had several affairs, I don't think she was a "Player", but more along the lines of a desperately lonely and sick woman seeking comfort where she thought she could find it.
Patcat
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 6, 2007 12:14:05 GMT -5
It was the way the line was said that made me think she was a player, and didn't want her son to know, the anxious way she quickly said she'd finished with "all" the other men, trying to reassure Bobby about a question he hadn't asked and looking up at him worried about what he was thinking. My take on Frances is that she was a player, both before marriage and during. On one hand she was almost proud about having many suitors but then quickly commented to Bobby that once she had met her husband she was done with all of that.....which we know now with at least one was certainly not the truth. Frances struck me as a woman who enjoyed being the object of desire of many men. She loved the attention. It was an ego builder. Imagine the hurt when the man she picked began picking others. She no longer was the center of his attention. Quite a crushing feeling for a woman who was accustomed to being number one in his eyes and bed. I believe her response was to "show him". Perhaps in the beginning she merely flirted with others and let her husband know it. Obviously Goren sr. didn't get the message or didn't care about the message because he continued with his own agenda. I think at that stage Frances took it one step further. Needs=Deeds. The flirting became action. A deep seated need to be the focus of a man's attention fueled her deeds. I think she would have preferred her husband's attentions but since they were focused elsewhere, she looked elsewhere....and found Brady. And perhaps found others when Brady was unavailable. Her unhappiness with her home situation spanned years. That's a long time to deal with a roving husband in the way that she chose. She would have had many opportunities to find someone to fulfill those emotional/physical needs. And I believe she did, not only with Brady but others.
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