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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 18, 2005 19:26:21 GMT -5
I was reading a post over on the Universal board about how it's a common opinion that Seasons 1 & 2 of LOCI were far better than Season 3, and it got me thinking. And since I gave up waiting for my account to be activated on that board a long while back -- they're very slow at processing registrations -- so thought I'd post here.
I distinctly recall the second season premiere episode, DEAD, and the discussion about it on the old SUSA board. Many posters were disappointed and found it -- as well as other eps in the second season -- not as good as the first season. But now lots of viewers tend to look back on seasons 1 & 2 as the "glory days" of the show! (It reminds me of an OpEd the New York Times ran around Christmas a year ago. It was a column complaining about how Christmas had become so commercialized that it bore little resemblance to Christmases of the writer's youth. It was an OpEd column that had initially run in the Times in 1890.)
Perhaps it's only human nature to enjoy the earlier seasons more because of the freshness and novelty of the characters and concept. Perhaps the show has changed. The characters, of course, change in that they become more fleshed out.
Were there distinct qualities to the series in particular, earlier, seasons or episodes that have disappeared or appeared? Do you have a favorite season? Do any episodes from later seasons "feel" like they're from earlier seasons and/or do any of the earlier episodes seem direct precursors to later seasons?
I'm curious to know what people here think...
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 18, 2005 20:00:19 GMT -5
I think now that we have 4 seasons to compare to each other, season 2 wins out for whatever reason. People pick different reasons for choosing season 2 as their favorite. I am in several "CI groups" where season 2 is chosen as the best season in most polls. On ocassion, season 1 wins. I too think seasons 3 and 4 are not as good as the first two seasons. I have read on other boards that Goren lacks " the fire and passion" that he used to have and I agree.
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Post by darmok on Feb 18, 2005 21:55:41 GMT -5
I think season 4 has been very good. It started very strong. While it hasn't kept up the emotional intensity of the first several episodes, most of the episodes have been very good. The only really weak one was View from up Here. A couple others haven't been very memorable, but several episodes have been very good (Semi-Detached, Want, Magnificat, Gone, Stress Position).
Just my opinion.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 19, 2005 1:09:45 GMT -5
While I have only seen 2 episodes of S 2, having seen all of 1 , 3 and 4 -- I see where the changes have become more obvious. As it goes with acting and bringing a new character to life, the first 2 seasons were going ot be where VDO and Balcer and the rest are feeling out what they've had in mind for Goren, "trying new things" as Rene says he likes to do. Writing for a show under the Criminal Intent formula, with a character like Goren for Vincent to work with, had to be pretty interesting to see which paths they wanted to explore. Now, I can see a difference in Goren's "character" as the seasons progress onward. He is more alive, animated, fidgety/quirky, and tends to laugh and joke more in earlier seasons. But, as his character grows, he can't stay the same forever -- and frankly, it would be boring to me (IMO) if he did. There are things in S 4 that I've missed about him, but the darker tid-bits have piqued my interest in other ways. (Ie: Want, Magnificate, Semi-Detached, Gone, Stress Possitions, Collective) As Darmok pointed out, S4 started out with a flame, then as most shows do, slowed down in intensity toward Christmas Hiatus -- then picked back up again with GONE and COLLECTIVE. There definitly were some weak episodes, but then again, no season can be a barn-burner for the entire 22 episode cache! *grin* The later episode that really made me reminicent of S 1-3 was COLLECTIVE ( but then, Goren playing in the toy store just made my evening..*big grin*) Since I am just getting to see some HIGHly rated eps from S 2, I really can't pick a favorite season...but if I had to hazzard a guess...from what I've seen so far in CHERRY RED...Season 2 would probably stand-out the most to me. All in all, I think season 4 is reving back up, and I can't wait to see what Mr. Sneaky-Pants (Balcer) has in store for us for the rest of this season. ~just my view
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Post by Marie on Feb 19, 2005 5:01:10 GMT -5
All in all, I think season 4 is reving back up, and I can't wait to see what Mr. Sneaky-Pants (Balcer) has in store for us for the rest of this season. ~just my view Ahem. It's "Sneaky Boots" MelTex - as sneaky pants is a far too disturbing mental picture, even for my mind. LOL! As for the evolution of LOCI... We first meet Det. Robert Goren at a very dynamic point in his arc. Sharp as a bag of razors, unapologetically quirky and full of surprises because of it, he's at the top of his game and clearly enjoying himself; the pleasure he takes in doing his job at the forefront of seasons 1 & 2. At least until episode 23; the season 2 finale - "A Person of Interest". Up until then, Goren was always the one dishing it out. And speaking for myself, I can see how, had they kept him on that path, the traits we so admired him for "could" have given rise to a degree of over-confidence bordering on the arrogant; the accumulative effect of always being right, week after week, producing an air of smugness we might have grown to dislike. (I know I was starting to find him a little too clever - and consequently, predictable.) I think that's why the writers took his character down a peg, in "A Person of Interest". It became necessary to balance him out, to inject a little weakness or imperfection into his storyline. At the very least, in an effort to prevent Det. Goren from becoming tiresome; both in terms of writing the character and playing him, in as much as watching him. As no one likes a self-satisfied smart-ass. I feel viewers have reacted to the gradual shift in direction owing to the contrast between the Goren they first met, and the one they're seeing now in season 4. As by contrast, it's less dynamic and ergo, not as exciting. It's more introspective and contemplative. He's not "performing" as much now for our amusement. But again, imagine how he'd look onscreen after 4 years of episodes like "Jones" or "Crazy"..? There's only so long you can keep a rocket "in mid air" before you get tired of just watching the ascent. Fireworks are boring unless at some point, they go off. A sports car is just a car moving fast if it never changes speed. You know? I think it's worth noting as well, that at the start of season 4, it was the understanding that D'Onofrio planned to exit the series at the end of season 5. And so if the writers/actor hoped to do anything different with his character, now was the time to do it. As no one creative likes to repeat themselves. That gets boring real fast! (It takes 1 hr to watch an episode they took weeks and weeks to produce, remember. So they have to live with stuff a lot longer than viewers do.) As far as stories go, I find that over the course of the past 4 seasons, on average, there's as many hits as misses, depending upon what you personally enjoy seeing; some guest stars perhaps more interesting to watch than others, some plots more clever, etc. I've loved about 50% of season 4 so far. 30% was ok. And the remaining 20% were kinda flat; episodes such as "The View from Up here" for example, were lack-lustre. Imo. So I don't really have any complaints. Aside from Det. Bishop. She kinda bored me. Otherwise, I think the series has done well for itself. At least I've gotten to eat more than "here we go again" each week. An unpredicable menu, in other words. But then that's my cup of tea. Others may prefer to stick to what drew them to the restaurant in the first place; chuckle!
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Post by djeter on Feb 19, 2005 8:15:20 GMT -5
Having seen all 4 seasons I would have to say easily Season 2 was the best... Cherry Red, Anti Thesis, A Person Of Interest to name a few really made S2 great. Season 1 would have to be next as thats when we got to know Goren and Eames and how they clicked. Season 3 was a bit of a let down, and I have liked the majority of S4 so far in particular Semi-Detached, Want, Magnificat, Gone and Collective. I am eager to see where we end up by the time this season is complete..
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 19, 2005 12:00:36 GMT -5
I've seen all episodes that have aired up to this point, and while I have my favorites from earlier seasons, I'm so attracted to the mystery of what's coming next with Goren and how he reacts to the criminals he stalks, that I find myself always enjoying the current season the most. Although LOCI isn't soapy, there's definitely an accretion of information and insight into the character that builds slowly over time. For me, that's the hook to the series that transcends each, individual plot. And, as I've said before, I do find that certain episodes fit together in a sort of progression. But, for me, I think it's a function of the various writers on the show (easiest to discern in those writers who've been on the show since Seasons 1 & 2). The episodes written by Marlane Gomard Meyer, Stephanie Sengupta, Jim Sterling and Gerry Conway fit into complementary, but distinct, arcs of evolution in the show. More, perhaps, on this later... But for now I must run. I've enjoyed reading these posts!
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amnesic
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 66
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Post by amnesic on Feb 25, 2005 12:31:02 GMT -5
i have only seen S1 and S3 and a few eps of season 2 so far. But i preferred S3 to S1. there was more characterisation i thought. or it may have been the 2 month wait in anticipation for Amazon.com to send me the DVD from the states that made it seem extra special
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Feb 25, 2005 12:33:54 GMT -5
Well having not seen much of season 2 ( ) i cant really make an evaluation on it, but i think that season 3 is brilliant! i have a harder time picking faves from season 3 then the others b/c they are all so good IMO.
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RivErStaR
Rookie
It'S nOt EasY bEinG gReeN!
Posts: 7
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Post by RivErStaR on Feb 26, 2005 20:46:58 GMT -5
For me season 2 is LOCI at its best. And my reasoning? It's because there are so many memorable episodes and it actually dealt with criminal intent. Season 1, to me, while still good, was more about the show finding it's feet: setting up the characters, defining and fine-tuning its whydunit premise and so on. Season 2 found the rhythm and pace of a clever detective/crime show. It held my attention even though I knew whodunit. Watching LOCI during season 2 suddenly wasn't about solving the case anymore; we saw more intent and more from the perp's perspective and it was genuinely deep, engrossing entertainment. The episodes which stand out in my mind are: Bright Boy, Anti-Thesis, Malignant Chinoiserie, The Pilgrim, Baggage, Suite Sorrow (this is one of my all time favourites), Probability (this episode is pure genius IMO), Cherry Red and Blink. And that's just 10 out of the 22. I could name more but those are some of my more favourite LOCI moments. Season 3 on the other hand, I feel it lost its rhythm with the introduction of Bishop. Now while people hate her with a passion, I actually didn't mind her -- with the exception of that red hair! Seeing her work (or not work) with Goren made me realise just how well Goren and Eames click. Bishop had the potential to be a great character, but I guess it was TPTB who decided to make her partnership with Goren like oil and water. There's a part of me who'd like to see her return, but there's also a rather large part of me who'd prefer her to stay away. Maybe they could use her at the two-seven and shove her with Dennis! ;D Okay I'm shutting up now and I apologise if this post makes no sense but I've got a really bad cold, blocked sinuses and I haven't been able to sleep for over 24 hours because of it. My apologies.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Mar 1, 2005 13:13:41 GMT -5
I thought it was cool how they were like oil & water, it showed us just how hard bobby really is to work with or merely co-exist with. the writers definately showed me that the 'click' btw eames & goren is quite special indeed, they act almost like best friends though at times they have their differences (the good Dr. Pas De Deux & One are a few examples). for the time bishop was partnered with him she was instantly onerwhelmed by the fact that he's like a dog on a trail when he's on a case... never stopping. Also i dont think that bobby really 'tried' all that hard to get along or warm up to bishop anymore then nessessary, i cant say for sure why that is but i can guess that in his mind he only has one partner & she wasnt it.
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Post by trisha on Mar 5, 2005 9:40:33 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this a lot, LOCIfan. Great topic, btw I think that the more selfish the motives, the more enraged Goren gets over it, and the bigger the bang at the end of the episode. We got a lot of those kinds of episodes in the first and second season. When there is a deep emotional or psychological problem, then he separates the individual from the "disease" and the emotional range of the episode goes from the wrath of the just reigning down on the iniquitous, to the product of the split between an individual and her disease laying the path to self awareness and healing as well as justice for another victim of the "illness." I think it depends on what sort of emotional range the viewer prefers. I love that Bang!
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Post by LOCIfan on Mar 12, 2005 22:37:34 GMT -5
trisha, you're so right about this! When the killer's motives are the result of simple greed, selfishness, etc... Goren's very different than when a "disease" muddies the waters.
The BANG is loudest when Goren's not torn by empathy, and that's something that does, to me, differentiate earlier LOCI episodes from this season in particular.
Balcer indicated -- I think in the interview posted at nbc.com -- that Season Four is marked, not so much by Goren being depressed or darker or whatever, but by his being more "engaged" with the perps, less within his "comfort zone." (I believe that's how Balcer described it.) I'm not sure whether or not Goren's less comfortable when he empathizes with the bad guys' mental illnesses, but he is certainly more ambivalent about them -- and that does kind of take the air out of a good BANG, doesn't it?!
Good call, trisha!
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Post by trisha on Mar 13, 2005 11:59:44 GMT -5
It's the softer side of Goren, and some really like it, in fact, I believe some begged for it. While I'm interested in this season, I did get more pleasure out of the early seasons, and part of it probably has a lot to do with the things you stated in your opening post. He's not new to me anymore, and he's not nearly the puzzle he used to be, either. As the seasons have progressed, we've found that a lot of our early conjecture about him was very close, if not right on, and though it's nice to hear it in the moment, it sort of took the wind out of the sails of the good ship Over Analysis (and I loved hitting the waves on that boat!)
But, yes, I think that when we have a truly wicked criminal, there's a definite feeling of justice being served, and hence, a better sense of closure in the BANG!
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Post by Techguy on Mar 13, 2005 17:13:24 GMT -5
I agree, this is an excellent topic. Thanks to LOCIfan for bringing it up.
I still haven't seen all the Season 2 episodes. I got started watching CI when these episodes were on and didn't watch every week for whatever reason. Luckily I have been able to view some episodes in reruns, but I'm convinced the only way I'll catch up completely is when the entire season DVD set is released. *taps fingers on table impatiently*
Fortunately, "Cherry Red" is one of the S2 episodes I have seen and still consider it my favorite all-time CI episode ever (unless a missing S2 episode one day dispaces it at the top). I find CR the most complete and satisfying CI episode so far, combining humor and a very strong police procedural with Detectives Goren and Eames working smoothly and efficiently to solve the crime and get the goods on the perps. It is the perfect CI thus far, the one I have reserved the highest A+++ rating, the standard by which I evaluate each CI ep.
Thanks to the DVD sets, I have completely caught up with all the Seasons 1 and 3 episodes. I have been watching and taping all of Season 4, so I'm up to date with the current eps.
Some general comments--Det. Bishop's partnership with Goren in S3 was disappointing because in the few eps she appeared in, I saw little development of her character. She was here and gone before I really got to know her. Her primary function seemed to be to show how the absence of Eames affected Goren, and really brought into focus how well Eames and Goren worked together up to that point.
Season 4 has been a mixed bag, starting off with a huge bang, and then settling down to a more even ebb and flow of plots. My least favorite S4 ep is "The View From Up Here" which I feel didn't go anywhere and was really hindered with the creepy and less than satisfactory villain Victor.
Generally speaking, I much prefer the stories focusing on the intent of the criminals, and the greedier and badder they are the better. I'm not so much a big fan of Goren explosions, but I do enjoy his glee and satisfaction when he puts one over on an especially arrogant and self-satisfied perp.
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