Is Goren in Favor of the Death Penalty?

[MelTex]

Great quote from Tolkein Trisha.

I am, of course, in a Death Penalty state... probably the most prolific state for the use of the death penalty. In my city, we have sprung up several new state and federal prison facilities because of over-crowding in others across the country. Having a fiance who works in a federal prison and in the criminal justice system, and a father who was a police detective--I've heard of the minority statistic, not just in the use of the death penalty, but it the penal system in general.

I guess, because of my family background in law enforcement, my veiws on the death penalty might be biased, this I am aware of. I am for it in certain circumstances, like Goren...when the intent is there. Cop killers, serial killers... those of the like, yes I don't want them to ever see the light of day. And I don't much like paying for their room and board for the rest of their lives <be they from moderate income backgrounds, wealthy, or the poor and undeducated>. (Knowing what I do about Federal prisons in particular, let me tell you, some of them are better off inside, three square meals a day, laundry, big screen TV, state of the art medical facilities and recreation facilities. Some of these guys had life a lot worse on the outside...."Club Fed" is not just an expression)

But, do I think the death penalty should be over used or has that big of an impact on crime in general?...No. I am saddened that our society kills...in ALL forms of killing, not just corpral punishment. But I guess the alternative to living with people (who kill eachother) is finding a nice spot on the Moon to live perhaps..*grin*

Hope this wasn't sounding soap boxy, but I guess I'm kinda like Goren, if the death penalty is to be used, it better be for the right reasons.

[Metella]

Thanks for sharing:

When I was young, I was for the death penalty in those nasty cases that convicted a person .... I had faith that our criminal justice system worked just like it was written down in black and white. I also thought that it was not in society's interest to pay for the keep of a monster.

Now I am completely against the death penalty unless the inmate has not only confessed once but continues to assert he is guilty and that the crime is a serial or continuous type of crime.

No matter the evidence against anyone; serial or one time or boyscout, unless they themselves agree; I am totally against the death penalty. So much can be manipulated.

In our current system of appeals; it can actually cost more to take someone through the motions and then carry out the execution; than to keep them for life. So unless the system changes; that argument is not valid.

I also think it is in no way a deterent to others & I am still ambivilent a bit - my position is one I would NOT argue & I would be just as happy without this option.

Sounds pretty wishy-washy, eh?

[Techguy]

When I was much younger, I was a lot more gung-ho in favor of the death penalty in most, if not all, murder cases. I naively believed then that 12 good people who sit in the jury box and hear all the evidence are the best determinants of a person's guilt or innocence and whether the convicted person should live or die.

Perhaps as a result of my service in the Army and found myself in position to act as an agent of the state and kill the "enemy," I adopted a much more skeptical view of the value of the death penalty for the reasons already given. It doesn't deter crime, there are inequities in the application of the death penalty due to the defendant's socio-economic status and race and the resulting quality of legal representation, etc. So I am more in favor of applying the death penalty VERY VERY sparingly in such cases as serial killing, murder for hire, and equally abhorrent crimes.

For example, the world will be a much safer and better place if Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols is permanently removed from this world. I won't lose any sleep if the plug is pulled on him, in fact I know I'll sleep a lot better for it. And I know I won't be alone.

[Sirenna]

I'm against the death penalty but there are some people I would like killed - serial killers for example.

I suspect I'm like many people in that respect which is why state-sanctioned death-penalty never goes away completely.

Faceiousness aside. I'm against the death penalty. Being human is about changing yourself and your world. The death penalty makes all of that irrelevant. It prevents us finding identifying and isolating deviants before they damage us.

Remorse, reflection and forgiveness are humanity's saving graces. If there's no avenue to express these, then there is no hope for us to treat each other and our world, including its animals and natural resources, with compassion and the co-operation that might sustain it.

[BegToDiffer]

I know we touched on this subject in another post, and I was firm at that time about being in favor of the death penalty. I personally know five people who have been murdered and I am sure that has a large impact on what i think. Of the killers, three were caught and none were sentenced to die. 2 remain at large. Yet, I hate myself for wanting someone, anyone to die. Its my conflict and who knows how I will solve it.
On another note, I live in a state that allows the Death Penality and a few years ago, one man sentenced to death decided to refuse anymore appeals and demanded the state put him to death. He became known as the "Volunteer". That caused quite a stir among the other inmates because up until that time, no one had been executed for many years and the others preferred to lay low so to speak. Anyway, he got his wish, they killed him and have been killing them ever sense. I'm still conflicted.

[trisha]

That's it. I'm NEVER going back to Cleveland.

[LOCIfan]

Yep, I think we did discuss this once before. But it's been a while.

I agree that Goren would have no qualms about killing certain murderers, but whether or not he agrees with the death penalty as it currently exists is a slightly different question.

Given how unevenly it is applied/enforced, I'd imagine he'd have an issue with that.

Also, there have been a few studies (one, I believe out of Utah, which cites the Gary Gilmore case) which conclude that not only does the death penalty fail to deter crime, but there are cases in which it's been shown that defendants deliberately chose to commit their crimes in states which have the death penalty due to the notoriety that accompanies being charged with/convicted of a capital offense.

Goren would certainly be interested in the psychology of that aspect of the death penalty.

My personal opinion -- I'm against it.

[BegToDiffer]

Don't worry Trisha, I'll protect you. We are now a concealed carry state!

[Patcat]

A poster on a L&O list (there's a discussion about New York State's requirements for the death penalty and recent changes in them) noted that it costs about $1.5 million dollars to house an inmate for life, while it costs an average of $13 million per death row case. This poster identified himself as a corrections officer.

These numbers are averages, of course, and likely vary a great deal from case to case. Still, from a purely cold financial standpoint they offer an argument against the death penalty.

And it also supports my idea that Goren saved the taxpayers of New York a lot of money when he got Tagman to confess in WANT.

Patcat

[BegToDiffer]

Re: Goren saving the taxpayers money, I hope this doesn't sound too cold, but I think it was the other inmates who saved the taxpayers of New York a lot of money.
Also, re: the cost to house and or execute a prisoner, I'd like to see a breakdown of those expenses in each case. I assume this is public records.

[LOCIfan]

The vast majority of the cost associated with death penalty inmates relates to legal fees, as appeals (sometimes both to an appellate court as well as to the court of last resort in the state) are both costly and time consuming.

The average cost for the care, housing and medical treatment of an inmate in New York State is somewhere along the lines of $30,000/year (this is an old -- mid-nineties -- figure). Multiply that by the average life expectancy of inmates doing life and you'd have a figure.

But, yes, these figures are a matter of public record, and are subject to public audits.

Regarding Tagman's murder in prison, which was clearly based on Jeffrey Dahmer's similar fate... Well, vigilante violence as a replacement for due process may save money, but what it costs in terms of the degradation of a civil society which purports to believe in both human rights (yes, even for the most vile among us) and the process of law, goes way beyond dollars and cents.

[BegToDiffer]

LOCI, thanks for the info.
And sorry, I wasn't suggesting vigilante violence as an acceptable way to save money, just pointing out that Goren wasn't the one responsible. Gosh, even I'm not that cold.

[kawaiidragonfoe821]

i think that he is in some circumstances, but not in others b/c in 'stray' carver says that Tamara pleaded to life in prision but the DA was going to seek the death penalty on Jarome. he askes bobby if that was ok with him & he said that it was the 'wrong time to ask' b/c they were going to the funneral of 2 cops. That to me hinted that he didnt agree with it in that circumstance b/c the poor kid had to much potiental... being so smart & all.

[LOCIfan]

Ah, BegToDiffer, I did misunderstand your post. Patcat's reference to Goren being conscious of the costs involved in capital cases (though that wasn't his only consideration) struck me as very different from the violence of the prisoners who murdered Tagman out of hate. While Goren may very well have been aware of the costs involved, I doubt that saving the state money was on the minds of the inmates who killed Tagman.

Goren may not always agree with the law as it exists, but I believe he has respect for it. And, regardless of his personal feelings about a defendant, I can't imagine a situation in which he'd approve of mob violence/justice.

Not sure if that makes sense, but I guess that's what I was reacting to in my earlier post. Sorry that I put words in your mouth. Forgive me for being too quick to jump on my soapbox!