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Post by Patcat on Mar 9, 2005 11:29:23 GMT -5
Maybe this should be part of exploring the batcave, but is Bobby Goren in favor of the death penalty?
By the way, the state of New York, while it's had the death penalty on its books for many years, hasn't executed anyone for some time. And it now appears that the state will finally remove the death penalty from its books.
Patcat
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Post by Metella on Mar 9, 2005 12:10:58 GMT -5
I think this is a stand alone thread; the batcave thread I see as much more - oh, ok - I'm gonna stop it.
There are some hints to this as well as all the character development that we can surmise and interpolate.
From knowing other people and knowing their characters and then looking at Goren .... I think he is for the death penalty but only in very extreme cases - in which clear murderous intent is there as well as a continuing threat to society. By this, I mean that a husband killing his cheating wife may not qualify in Goren's mind - as this husband is very unlikely to kill again - but a serial killer, or a person with a long history of escalting assaults & then murder -
Well, just my take on it.
Shall we get into personal view on this topic also?
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Post by Patcat on Mar 9, 2005 14:17:49 GMT -5
If people want to discuss their personal views on the death penalty, I think we could have that here, if it's ok with the moderators and we're all civilized (heck, we're always civilized here, pretty much)
I've the impression Goren is ambivalent about the death penalty--in WANT he's arguing specificly about Tagman's case. In the third season case of STRAYS, Carver describes the plea agreement that avoided the death penalty for the cop killer, and Goren, heading to one of the cops' funerals, comments "Now's now that time.." So, I agree that he might think it's justified in some cases. But I don't think he's gung ho for it.
Patcat
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Mar 9, 2005 15:22:14 GMT -5
Hey, this is a interesting topic for Goren!
I think in the case of WANT, he would have been ok witht he death penalty had Tagman shown no remorse for his actions. Goren sees how disgusted in himself Tagman is, and the deeper psychosis, and feels the man needs to be put away for the rest of his life with psychiatric help, not the needle.
I agree, I think it depends on the circumstances--a serial killer with continued threat to the society or cop killer, no question...the needle for them.
Other than that, I think he's not a"string them high" all that time kind of guy (Abby Carmichael from the mothership...she always brought a smile to my face when she'd say, "If we were back in Texas, your ass would be strapped down with a needle in your arm" *giggle* Kinda funny the way she said it, yet true) He's not so gung ho...like Pat said. ;D
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Post by bdbrowski on Mar 9, 2005 15:57:30 GMT -5
I was going to mention the same episode and quotation as Pat. When going to the police funeral, he said it was not a good day to ask whether he favored the death penalty. My impression is that he generally does not, but anger and loyalty may make him feel conflicted and cloud his typical judgment and belief system.
I am surprised that the show addresses hot button issues so directly. For instance, in the episode with the abortion doctor killer, Goren tells Eames that he is pro-choice, and Eames lets us know forcefully that she is, too. Usually, on network tv, the shows skirt the delicate issues and do not express an opinion.
-Beth
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Post by Patcat on Mar 9, 2005 16:26:14 GMT -5
Yes, all of the LAW AND ORDER shows regularly address fairly hot button topics, but don't seem to incur the wrath of people with different views.
I've noted a couple of articles discussing the fact that the CSI programs are exceptionally graphic and violent, but don't seem to attract criticism in spite of the fact there are supposedly more watchdogs out there.
Perhaps it's because the L&O shows do a reasonable job of presenting different views of a subject?
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Mar 9, 2005 17:01:23 GMT -5
I think all 3 L&O's have had their feet to the fire, and probably will again. I don't watch SVU, so I don't know about them, but I think that TOS and CI have been pretty fair by having someone there to argue the other side when today's controversial issues are part of the story.
Meltex, I think Goren's objection to Tagman getting the death penalty had more to do with his honest belief that Tagman didn't mean to kill the woman. Intent is needed for murder 1, and if I'm not mistaken, only murder 1 and cop killings are made capital cases in NY. I'm sure he had some genuine concern for Tagman after his show of remorse, but it seemed to me that his biggest concern was for the law, and Carver's tinkering with it to get a bigger case on the docket.
I had always imagined Goren as pro-capital punishment when the case fit the law (because, as he said of The Good Doctor, he'll take 'em any way he can get 'em), but his words in Stray do seem contradict that view. Funny how he can get so down on Carver for tinkering with the law to get a suspect when he as done as much himself, eh?
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Mar 9, 2005 17:08:11 GMT -5
Thats true Trisha, its been so long since I've seen WANT, I'd forgotten about Caver messing with the law so he could get Murder 1 on the docate. And Goren, above all, wants justice under the law as stated.
The STRAYS line was good to, forgotten that as well,...suggesting that his loyalty to his fellow officers is still firmly in place.
In MAGNIFICATE, when Goren askes Carver, "Isn't there something in this book that'll make him take resposibility for what he did" really showed Goren's need for justice, and how "down" he can get on Carver, when he won't "tinker" with the Law at certain times...but will on others.
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Post by Techguy on Mar 9, 2005 18:16:15 GMT -5
I'm going to opt for Det. Goren being ambivalent--or is it conflicted?--about the issue of capital punishment. Certainly in "Want" he is very passionate about sparing Tagman because the requisite intent to kill was not present in this case. In "Stray" it sounds like he considers cop killing warrants the death penalty, although in this case he might feel that Tamara the mastermind is more deserving of death than the slow-witted Jerome who actually commits the murders.
With Goren's highly developed moral sense of right and wrong, he would make clear distinctions as to which murders could possibly deserve the death penalty and which ones do not. Certainly serial killers would fall into the "deserved" category, and murders committed for selfish reasons for personal gain.
Wasn't it in the episode "Gemini" that Goren told Spencer something along the lines of, "your brother Brent might be sick, but you're evil"? I think Goren might consider Spencer a candidate for the death penalty, along with characters like: --the murderous doctor in "D.A.W." who killed hundreds of his patients for their jewelry and other possessions --the woman in "Poison" who tampered with OTC medications to cover up the murder of her own husband --the pharmacist in "Malignant" who watered down cancer drugs so he could sell the medication for profit --Officer Randolph in "Badge" who smothered two children to death to create a false murder/suicide scenario
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Post by Metella on Mar 9, 2005 18:48:53 GMT -5
Interesting - it seems almost unanomous that we all think Goren is conflicted, but it has been a very specific case to even have him consider it appropriate.
Imagine all the other Goren topics & all the individual interpretations on his motives & thoughts - how odd we have one here that so far seems to be solid.
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Post by djeter on Mar 10, 2005 0:27:11 GMT -5
I would agree that he would be for it in some cases and against in others. I think we have seen a couple of hints to suggest that if the circumstances were right, he would have no problem. But if like in Want, he honestly believed that Tagman didn't want/ deliberately mean to kill the women, then life in prison is fair in his eyes.
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Post by KATIE on Mar 10, 2005 3:33:24 GMT -5
Im with you djeter, same as in the ep about abortion, Eames ask Bobby what his thoughts were and he said you have to have a choice. No they arent the script words but along the line anyway. I think everybody should have a choice, not be intimidated one way or another. JMHO
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Post by Metella on Mar 10, 2005 8:03:05 GMT -5
I am really wanting to know what your personal views on this are ..... I won't start it, but if anyone wants to share, I want to listen.
AND - mine has changed over my years - wondering if anyone else has been all for one way & then after a little life lived; have a different take on it later?
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Post by Patcat on Mar 10, 2005 9:11:48 GMT -5
Well, if anyone cares, I'm opposed to the death penalty on a variety of grounds. It's never been shown to be an effective deterrent against crime, it's used discriminately against poor people and minorities, and there's no way to correct the mistake if the wrong person is convicted. Above all, I believe it's morally wrong for society to kill.
Indiana, where I live, is a death penalty state. As a matter of fact, a man was executed last night. On the face of it, he certainly seemed to deserve to die. He killed a family of four, including two very small children, when they surprised him during a robbery. But the crime occurred 20 years ago, and in those 20 years the murderer studied, became a painter, and changed from the drug addicted young man he was at the time of the murders. He expressed sorrow and regret for his crime, and in the end refused to ask for any more appeals. Now, some argued he was playing the system and hadn't changed. Others said he had. Did he deserve to die--I don't know. His crime was certainly horrible, and any of the victims were related to me perhaps my view would be different.
I confess I feel better that people like Ted Bundy (an infamous serial killer) are no longer around. But I'm deeply troubled that society kills.
Patcat (who apologizes for the length of this post and hopes I don't sound too pompous)
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Post by trisha on Mar 10, 2005 11:17:15 GMT -5
Pat, that was not long at all. Have you seen some of the other posts on this board? [guilty grin] If we're doing our own beliefs, then mine is similar to yours in that I believe that the poor and uneducated are in an unfair position when it comes to our legal system. I also believe that most crimes are spontaneous and irrational, which makes any deterrent we put in place void. There are, of coarse, the Ted Bundy's, Richard Ramirez's, and Charles Manson's of the world who do put thought and planning into vicious crimes, but they aren't going to be deterred by prison or the death penalty, either. Lock them up and throw away the key, I say. Don't make their prison stay more pleasant with television, books, and phone calls, but don't sink to their level and take a human life. We remove killers from society because we believe human life to be priceless, so isn't it hypocrisy to take one out of what? Revenge? Because, if we're not actually deterring crime, that's all it is. Metella, my views on many things have changed over the years, but on this issue, I have never waivered, and I've used this quote many times when the capital punishment question comes up, "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." – J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Fellowship of the Ring
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