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Post by Patcat on May 6, 2005 15:39:49 GMT -5
SPOILERS for Fifth Season Speculation follows
I've likely bored everyone all ready with my views on Nicole--Olivia D'Abo plays her as well as she can. The idea of a brilliant, evil, criminal who is also a slight beautiful blonde is an intriguing one that has never quite lived up to its potential. It's also intriguing that Nicole and Eames are physically similar. But Nicole has outlived her usefulness--we've seen in the 3rd and 4th season that other villains can engage Goren emotionally and intellectually in far more interesting battles. GREAT BARRIER seemed from a different series than the rest of the 4th season. And characters like John Tagman have threatened Goren's psyche in ways Nicole can't begin to. She can no longer surprise him or us. And her repeated escapes from justice are no longer believable. That said, her appearances have also led to some revelations about Goren and some great scenes--heroes are, after all, defined by their villains. And Nicole was very effective at defining Goren. And I hope for a more satisfying resolution--scenes that show that Goren is prepared for her, that she is no longer a worthy opponent, and that she's made painfully aware of that. And then that Eames, or Logan, gutshoots her and she's left to bleed away while Goren tells her, "You know what I feel, Nicole? Nothing, absolutely nothing."
And I think Logan and Goren might actually get along--maybe not be buddies, but respect each other. They both have mother issues apparently, and I think the experience at the end of STRESS POSITION gave Goren respect for Logan's guts and Logan respect for Goren's methods.
So, I'm looking forward to this. But my standards may be too low--I don't expect great art from LOCI, although there are times and scenes when it gets there. I expect it to be good and well crafted, and it's never disappointed me there.
My two bits and then some.
Patcat
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Post by missymagoshi on May 6, 2005 22:03:07 GMT -5
Patcat, I think that would be a wholly satisfying final ending for Nicole. But not Eames or Logan being the triggerman, but Goren being forced to shoot her at point blank range. He is, afterall, a detective first and foremost. The idea of him being put in that kind of position, perhaps even as a means of self-defense if she was able to get a shot off and injure him first, would certainly jusitfy his action. My issue with Nicole is (and has been) that I've never understood what drives the woman. She's evil yes, but it all seems like general manipulative behavior to me. The question is what is her ultimate goal? I've never been quite sure. She comes off as a plot device. One dimensional and boring. And unfortunately I find the actress annoying, which doesn't help.
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 8, 2005 0:26:11 GMT -5
Patcat. your low standards are justified!  Missy, I have wondered the same things you have. The only explanation we have been given for Nicole's behavior is that Goren thinks she was abused as a child, not confirmed though. That is just a little too generic and an easy gray place to go to. Now facing a fourth show with her, I have no idea why she does what she does, or what she ultimately wants or even why. And why was she such a "loose cannon" in Great Barrier? That didn't make sense. It didn't stop her from orchestrating murders or still killing with her bare hands. And suddenly, she didn't get under Goren's skin anymore. That made no sense either. Thinking of this goofy spoiler: Why on God's green earth would Nicole carry around a Thai Buddha? I'm sorry, but that's the first good laugh I've had all week. (Yes, I know that it's reference to her murder spree in Thailand but still!) I would prefer to have Nicole locked up in NY prison for the rest of her life than die quick. Or send her back to Australia to account for her daughters and Hitchens' murder. Well, those would leave ways for her return, so yes, kill her, finally! My only problem with the actress the accent. An Australian with a prefect British accent. And let me guess, a South African with a perfect British accent. UGH Logan! Logan will (maybe) have to help Goren get rid of Nicole? What a letdown! Can't Goren finally get rid of her himself? She is his nemesis afterall! |
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Post by Techguy on May 9, 2005 15:07:44 GMT -5
At the risk of coming across like a bad joke:
Q: How many detectives does it take to eliminate one boring soap dish?
A: Too many for too long and for no purpose. Enough already with this storyline, let's end it once and for all.
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Post by BegToDiffer on May 9, 2005 15:20:40 GMT -5
Ugh! If Goren needs Logan to help him get rid of Nicole, I will lose much of my faith in the writers. They are a really creative bunch, or at least I thought so. Why drag Nicole on anymore? I'm hoping for something really big to finish her off once and for all. What a great way to kick off the new season. It would give me some hope considering how I feel about Logan joining the cast. Maybe they could even have a promo that matched what the story was really about. Those promos stink! (Sorry, don't get me started on those promos.)
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Post by KellyO on May 12, 2005 7:03:43 GMT -5
Patcat, you raise some interesting points. I had not noticed the physical similarities between Eames and E/N.
I did not want E/N to die in Great Barrier, but I must admit I was somewhat disappointed in the episode and how it ended (both endings were dissatisfying to me).
If they're going to use her, I would prefer something more substantial than a one-hour a year episode can provide. It seems too disjointed and yes, I agree, somewhat unbelieveable at this point.
I definitely agree that there have been other villains that engage Goren - and Neil Patrick Harris' John Tagman was certainly one!
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'd kind of like to see Goren and Logan work a case or two together - maybe a two-hour made for TV movie with the two. Their different investigative styles are interesting to watch. Before I get shot, I have no desire for Erbe to leave - I'd like to see her have more substance to her character. But, I think a Goren/Logan show (at least once more) would be a good thing.
K
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Post by Major Hathaway on Jul 27, 2005 7:45:29 GMT -5
This is from "J" a person in Ireland who was not sure about posting .... i got permission to post this as i think it would fit right in with this group - so members - please read and comment on this for "J". Thank you
Ive been wondoring why Goren,the character.has such appeal to a cross section of
society...and i think its because he approches the archytype of a modern
Knight,chivalvous,well mannered,with the sword of insight in one hand and the
shield of protection in the other.This is most symbolocally obvious in Blink
where his finger searches out Truth like the laser gun.Do you think the writers
meant this depth of character or has it just evolved through the intensity of
Vincents acting?
The Knight idea might just be because i come from a country steeped in celtic
mythology......but it does seem consistent in every episode in every series,that
Goren fights through peoples illusions to get to the truth with the sword of
his intellect while protecting the vulnerable with his shield of compassion.And
even with the most Loathly Lady(nicole wallace) he retains his compassion,still
bringing her scones and tea!!!!
Other things im inteseted in is use of artwork in the background.....for
instance in the Athiest one he stands poignantly in fron of the Hicks painting
of the animals in the ark,a famouse 17c American Quaker,and he has often
aligned himself with Quakerly values,passive resistance in the Abortion
episode,the anti death penalty plea in Want,even his use of silence in his
dialogue.
Also did you notice the use of black/white check/stipes in View from up
Here....the theme of black/white runs through this episode.......suitcaSES,TIES
ETC!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by BegToDiffer on Jul 27, 2005 9:59:33 GMT -5
Only have a minute right now, but wanted to respond to the Quaker comment so there is no misunderstanding. While they are probably the most passive of any group, they stand very firm on their opposition to abortion. There is no middle ground there.
J-thanks for giving us some things to ponder. Will respond when I have more time.
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jaquetta
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 171
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Post by jaquetta on Jul 27, 2005 11:10:49 GMT -5
I've never noticed the artwork, but then I probably wouldn't. I'm horrible when it comes to nuances. Interesting though. Since it's a set, and a well thought out series, I'll have to pay more attention.
I love the Knight idea! (Skipping right over the "Lady" Nicole. I've decided that she does not exist in MY Goren's universe, so I'm not watching any episode she's in - yeah, right. As if the pull of VDO doesn't cancel her push.) Not sure about the Quakers. My views of them are sort of distorted by a friend who is Quaker but, like most people, not always in step with their teachings.
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Post by Techguy on Jul 27, 2005 22:45:28 GMT -5
Re: Nicole, I'm hard pressed to imagine any reasonable and credible scenario in which she comes up with something new about Det. Goren to use against him in their confrontations. The episodes in which she appeared deteriorated from introducing an intriguing formidable villain to a character who is a parody not only of what she once was, but the very idea of what a dramatic villain should be. She definitely has outlived her usefulness, so I'm hoping CI does the right thing by creating an appropriate final sendoff for her once and for all.
But having Logan deal with her would a cop-out; after all the dancing around she and Goren have done in her prior episodes, there can be no satisfactory ending to this story for me unless Goren has to confront her one final time and exorcise whatever demons he has remaining in the process. If CI brought Nicole in to expose Goren's bat cave, then my expectation is he has to have the will and the desire to face Nicole one final time to close this chapter in his life.
Whether Nicole ends up dead or alive in prison forever doesn't matter, although if she finally dies then that should close the door on her ever coming back to haunt the halls of Major Case Squad. I leave it up to CI's skilled writers to come up with a satisfactory finale which I hope happens fairly soon in Season 5.
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Post by Cassie on Jul 27, 2005 23:37:35 GMT -5
I also like the description of calling Goren a knight, it adds more color and romance to his character. I have always seen Goren as Superman, seeing him in black and white, wishing he had a woman There was another thread on this board about an article about “TV Leading Men Need To get laid” I feel that the writers are still writing their leading men, as if it was the late 50’s. Remember Ozzie and Harriet? Ricky and Lucy? Two married couples in real life. Yet in their TV marriages, they slept in twin beds. I am not saying that I want a romantic soap opera for Goren, I don’t, I like him as he is, just drop a hint, like they do for Eames, that every now and then he has a nice night out on the town. As for the art on the shows, I have noticed it before. There was a painting by Wassily Kandinsky, I don’t know the title of it, but it was used in the episode of “Enemy Within” and “Seizure” The painting really suited “Seizure“. Welcome “J”, my mummy was born in Ireland. I have some turf that was smuggled in. Every now and then I light it up, just to get a good old whiff of the fields of Ireland.  |
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Post by Patcat on Jul 27, 2005 23:44:39 GMT -5
There are occasional hints that Goren has had relationships--there's the stockbroker Irene, and someone in the secretarial pool, I think.
Really, for all we know, Goren could be in a very happy relationship--maybe with Olivia Benson.
Patcat
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Jul 28, 2005 2:47:15 GMT -5
hey patcat, your rigth about the occasional hints that goren has had relationships and yes he could be in a relstionship at the momment but i doubt very much he would be having an affair with benson, plus i doubt cragen would approve  ( imaginge the look on his face if he found,that would be to funny,oh and i wonder how much would react). i would proabbly even go so far as to say that goren may very be able to engage in longer term relationships than eames. reagrds all rom.
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Post by BegToDiffer on Jul 28, 2005 10:47:57 GMT -5
Re: the possibility that Goren is in a relationship--maybe that could explain his response to Nicole about "not counting him out" for having kids.
Re: Goren as a knight. He fits the role, but where would Eames fit in? (Just being silly.)
Re: Edward Hicks painting, I think J refers to the Peaceable Kingdom. The animals weren't on the ark, but on land showing how all the animals could get along. Its a great painting and Hicks actually did several versions of it. It helped promote the Quakers belief in peace. (They are the original "turn the other cheek" folks.)
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Post by Metella on Aug 15, 2005 10:43:32 GMT -5
ha! Eames as Sancho - perhaps a better fit than a Watson. I like that idea.
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Patrick Roy, 2006 inductee into the Hockey Hall of Fame
( imaginge the look on his face if he found,that would be to funny,oh and i wonder how much would react). i would proabbly even go so far as to say that goren may very be able to engage in longer term relationships than eames.